卡斯·卡恩訪談

天妮 采訪

代爾夫特理工大學(xué)建筑與建成環(huán)境學(xué)院

卡斯·卡恩訪談

天妮 采訪

就代爾夫特理工大學(xué)建筑與建成環(huán)境學(xué)院的相關(guān)背景情況，本刊采訪了該校建筑學(xué)院城市綜合體方向系主任（2006至今）卡斯·卡恩教授。

WA：《世界建筑》將要出版一期“建筑教學(xué)空間”的專輯，探討教學(xué)空間與建筑教育的關(guān)系。您能否讓讀者深入了解一下代爾夫特建筑學(xué)院，并介紹一下“BK城”？

KK：代爾夫特建筑學(xué)院融合了許多科系，它不只是集中在建筑設(shè)計上的建筑學(xué)院，而被叫做建筑與建成環(huán)境學(xué)院。它具有更廣闊的視野，會考察與創(chuàng)造環(huán)境有關(guān)的一切，涵蓋城市規(guī)劃、房地產(chǎn)管理、建造技術(shù)、遺產(chǎn)保護、修復(fù)更新，當(dāng)然還有建筑學(xué)。這些分門別類的科系組成一個學(xué)院，大家共用一座被稱為“BK城”的建筑。之所以起這個名字是因為它猶如一座城市。這個地方有著各具特色的文化和亞文化，仿佛來自不同居住區(qū)的人們，興致各異、愛好不同。

在BK城出現(xiàn)之前，建筑教師都是同專業(yè)的人，他們在一座與今天截然不同的建筑中工作。那是一座高層建筑，由荷蘭非常重要的建筑師雅各布·巴克馬與約翰尼斯·凡·德·布魯克在1960年代設(shè)計。它的建筑表達十分清晰，且為建筑學(xué)院量身定制，卻不幸在2008年被全部燒毀?；馂?zāi)之后，教師被臨時安置在帳篷中，從而將教員的垂直布局模式變成了水平。

這種截然不同的空間感受完全改變了人們交流合作的方式，因為在設(shè)置了垂直系統(tǒng)及安裝了電梯和樓梯間的建筑中，大多數(shù)會面及問候只能在首層發(fā)生。在短暫的休息或午餐之后，我們上樓回到各自的空間繼續(xù)工作。人與人之間、不同科系的教師之間沒有太多日常交流。學(xué)生與教授之間的溝通就更少了，因為教授和教師有各自的房間，可以徑直回到屋里關(guān)上門。這在帳篷中是不可能的，因為既沒有門，也沒有房間。所有人都在一個大空間里，一切都是臨時的。這樣就營造出一個交流知識和信息、相知相識的輕松氛圍。這也讓集中精力工作更困難且降低了舒適性，所以大學(xué)決定將3000名建筑學(xué)師生安置到一座即將出售的老建筑中，而正是這場大火在最后一刻阻止了出售。

這座舊的化學(xué)樓如今已成為BK城——老建筑成了我們的新家。這座建筑伸展開來，成為帶有諸多側(cè)翼和庭院的連貫水平空間。有兩個庭院被巨大的玻璃屋頂覆蓋，其中一個即是橘色大廳，學(xué)生可以在這里學(xué)習(xí)、聽講座、舉辦活動。它已經(jīng)成為代表性的空間之一。這里總是一片喧囂，但也活力四射。另一個大空間是模型室，里面的大型機器可以容納很多學(xué)生同時做模型。建筑的其他部分在極短時間內(nèi)進行了臨時性的翻新，使教室能在2-3個月內(nèi)投入使用。這是代爾夫特建筑學(xué)院有史以來最好的事情，人與人之間的交流變得更為頻繁。

自從有了可供交流的大空間、開敞的樓面和臨時性，學(xué)院的氣氛大為改觀。但是，一切都不會十全十美，火災(zāi)當(dāng)然是一次沉重的打擊。教授們沒有自己的房間，也沒有自己的桌子。我的團隊確實有專用的房間，但我沒有自己的專用桌。沒有專用桌的缺點在于有時大家很難找到你，但優(yōu)點是可以在更開放、更融洽的氛圍中工作，沒有隔閡。在我看來發(fā)生在這所荷蘭建筑學(xué)院身上的故事就是：火災(zāi)、帳篷、新建筑、臨時性的翻新和使用方式。教員要被迫走出舒適區(qū)，然后就地取材。并非一切事物都是完美的，且也不可能達到完美。我希望能逐步改善這座建筑，讓房間有更好的聲效。這種不便以及就地取材的狀況衍生出了一個強而有力的協(xié)作環(huán)境，改善了人們交流知識和信息的方式，進而推動了教育的進步。

WA：在您看來，建筑空間與建筑教學(xué)的關(guān)系是什么？

KK：它們之間有重要的關(guān)系。我們經(jīng)歷過的那次轉(zhuǎn)變在教學(xué)體制方面產(chǎn)生了巨大影響。路易·康曾說：教學(xué)需要的是空間，師生同坐在樹下，圈出的地方就可以教學(xué)。在一定程度上這是對的，教學(xué)也許需要不同的外在條件，但總是在人與人之間發(fā)生。教學(xué)就是知識和信息的交流，當(dāng)教學(xué)必需在更大的尺度內(nèi)發(fā)生且被制度化，便涉及到了所需的設(shè)施。如需要多少棵樹讓人就坐，需要多少棵大樹小樹、多少個大小房間，需要創(chuàng)造多少集會場所、什么類型的聚點或布局才能讓功能運轉(zhuǎn)。對于教學(xué)，如不考慮工作室、大型講座或自由討論，要讓學(xué)生感到舒適，且希望學(xué)生更多地在校而非在家學(xué)習(xí)，那就要讓他們來這里，在這座建筑中學(xué)習(xí)。

這座建筑必須在不同的地方提供不同的設(shè)施，與學(xué)生產(chǎn)生聯(lián)系讓學(xué)生愿意去那里。我認為理想的教學(xué)空間沒有定式，這是非常復(fù)雜的，但交流和交往是根本，這對于打造愉悅的教學(xué)場所極為重要。

WA：能否請您談一談評圖空間及展示空間的復(fù)合性使用？

KK：我認為大多數(shù)空間都有相對專一的屬性，如模型室大多數(shù)時候是用來做模型的。

1 室外夜景/Exterior view at night

2 入口/Entrence（圖片來源/Source: 代爾夫特理工大學(xué)建筑學(xué)院提供/TU Delft）

In relation to the background of the Faculty of Architecture and the Built Environment at Delft University of Technology,World Architectureinterviewed the Chair of the Complex Project (2006-present), professor Kees Kaan.

WA:World Architectureis going to publish an issue on "Space for Architectural Teaching" exploring the relationship between teaching space and architectural education. Can you please let our audience know more about the Faculty of architecture at Delft? And something about "BK City"?

Kees Kaan(KK):The faculty members of architecture at Delft come from many departments, so it's not just an architecture school focusing on designing buildings exclusively, it's called the Faculty of Architecture and the Built Environment, so it looks at a wider scope of everything related to the making of our environment, including urban planning, real estate management, building technology, heritage, restoration renovation, and of course architecture. And all these different departments are combined into one faculty and they all use that building called "BK City". It is called BK City because it functions like a city. It is a place with many, different cultures or subcultures inside it, like people from different neighborhoods, with different attentions, and different interests.

So before BK City was there, the architectural faculty consisted of the same group of people. They were housed in a totally different building that was built in the 1960s designed by Jaap Bakema and Johannes van den Broek, two very important Dutch architects, and it was a building with a highrise tower, but it burned down in 2008. That building was a very well articulated architectural project, specifically designed to be an architectural faculty. After the fire, that destroyed the entire building, the faculty was provisionally housed in tents. It changed the faculty from being vertically organized to the horizontal layout of the tents.

It is totally different spatial experience that changed entirely the way people collaborated and started to work, because in the building with the vertical system, with elevators and staircases, most of the meet and greet happened only on the ground floor. After a coffeebreak or a lunch we had move up to disappear into our own individual space to sit there and work. There was not so much informal interaction between people, between different faculty members. Interactions between students and professors etc. were even less because professors and teachers had their own rooms and they could simply go into their rooms closing the door. In the tents this was not possible because there were no doors and we had no rooms, so everybody was in one big space and everything was provisionally, and that created a very informal atmosphere of exchange of knowledge and information, and meeting each other. Of course it was a bit more difficult to concentrate into work and the comfort was rather moderate. Then finally the university decided to put the faculty of architecture – which is a very large faculty actually, we are about three thousand people there – to put it in an old building they actually we're just intending to sell but with the fire they stopped it at the last moment.

It was an old chemistry building that is now turned into BK City, and that old building became our new home. I like this building which stretches out as a long horizontal surface with different wings and courtyards, and two of the big courtyards were covered with a big glass roof. One of those courtyards became the orange room, where students work, where lecture and events are organized and that has become the emblematic space of the faculty. It's always a bit noisy, but it is very dynamic too.

The other big courtyard became the model room, big machines are placed and many students can make models simultaneously, and the rest of the building most renovated in very fast quick way, very provisional, to make it possible for the active faculty to move in within two or three months, that happens, and it was the best thing that ever happened to the school of architecture at Delft. Since that moment communication between people of the school became more informal and more frequent.

The ambience became much better, big spaces for exchange, big floor plates, and also because of this somehow provisional character. Things were not perfect and that was exactly right. It was of course a shock. The fire shook up the whole population of BK City. Professors like me, we don't have our own private rooms, I don't even have my own desk. I am working everyday from my laptop. I do have a room for my chair where did my team can work together, but I don't have my individual desk, the disadvantages maybe that you're sometimes difficult to find, but the advantage is you work in a much more open and informal ambience, no treshholds. So I think, this is what happened to the architecture faculty in the Netherlands: fire, the tents, the new building, the provisional renovation and the way it is used. The faculty was taken out of its comfort zone entirely, and then had to work with what was available at short notice. Not everything is perfect, and it's impossible to get the perfect. I hope gradually we will improve the building to make acoustics better in certain rooms and things are being improved, but this sort of level of inconvenience and the necessity to work with what you have, created a very strong, good collaborative spirit that improves the way people exchange knowledge and information, and so to improve education.

3 開放學(xué)習(xí)空間/Open learning space

4 開放學(xué)習(xí)空間/Open learning space

5 建筑學(xué)院圖書館/Faculty library

6 模型室/Model room（圖片來源/Source: 代爾夫特理工大學(xué)建筑學(xué)院提供/TU Delft）

WA：但有時候匯報和展覽可以在同一時間、同一地點進行。

KK：我認為在BK城兼顧兩種不同的功能并不容易。畢業(yè)展等活動需要更大的展示空間，所以我們確實經(jīng)常需要這么做。另一個問題是儲存，學(xué)生要做模型，我們經(jīng)常需要保存模型。畢竟教室一定要清空整齊，而工作室的空間必須為新的工作騰地方。這時我們就會留下要展示的模型。到3個學(xué)期結(jié)束時我曾想辦個展覽，但兩個庫房都是學(xué)生作品，我們根本沒有地方，這個問題一直沒有解決。我認為兼顧展示和保存是很重要的。

WA：所以您認為應(yīng)該先留出空間讓人們?nèi)ナ褂?，并在定義功用的同時完善這個地方？

KK：我認為這取決于使用密度。我們的空間確實局促且缺少彈性使用。對空間有很大使用需求的時候這是自然發(fā)生的，不僅教育機構(gòu)如此，在城市中也已出現(xiàn)。當(dāng)使用空間供不應(yīng)求，人們自然就發(fā)揮出了創(chuàng)造性，對空間的容忍度變高。在BK城，我們的壓力很大。我們有龐大的系館但依然總是擁擠不堪，且使用強度極高。當(dāng)然也有很安靜的時候，但那與教學(xué)安排有關(guān)。大家都在同一周評圖，一切都是并行的，所以就會有幾周非常安靜，而之后的幾周空間就會供不應(yīng)求。這個意義上講，更現(xiàn)實的方式是讓大家錯峰工作。因為學(xué)校有統(tǒng)一的時間安排，每個人的強度都很高，要分出學(xué)期、學(xué)季、考試周，所以總會有建筑的使用高峰。這是很復(fù)雜的。

WA：原來的建筑怎樣處理了呢？

KK：那是一場大火?；馂?zāi)徹底燒毀了這座建筑，將它夷為平地。建筑倒塌之后化為一片焦土，所以我們要搬到另一座建筑里去。最初是想把它作為一個臨時場地，然后再另建一座新的系館。后來發(fā)現(xiàn)這個臨時建筑還不錯，我們就留在那里了。

WA：眾所周知，院館的一部分是由MVRDV主持設(shè)計的，您對它有何看法？

KK：我非常喜歡它，那是很漂亮的地方。他們將演講等功能設(shè)置在橙色的大階梯當(dāng)中，我覺得非常好。學(xué)生可以坐在樓梯上休息，有時這里還舉辦講座。它已經(jīng)成為這座建筑里的一個核心空間。

WA：在BK城中，最受學(xué)生歡迎的是哪一部分？使用反饋如何？

KK：我并沒有詢問過學(xué)生。受歡迎的房間各有千秋，但大家都很喜歡緊鄰建筑的室外咖啡廳，特別是風(fēng)和日麗的時候那里人滿為患。它確實是一個名副其實的熱點。還有室內(nèi)咖啡吧也是一個會面聚點，那真的非常受歡迎。我想學(xué)生們還非常喜歡模型室，那是個好地方，場面很壯觀。在那里工作很愜意，能看到形形色色的模型，還有不同的學(xué)生在創(chuàng)作。我覺得橘色大廳也頗受歡迎，贊譽有加；因為那里特色鮮明，就像BK城的標(biāo)志?？梢哉f它是一個奇妙的地方，有無數(shù)的照片。然后還有教學(xué)區(qū)，比如東側(cè)樓。它的首層空間很大很好，就像一個工作室。在那里可以至少同100個學(xué)生工作，絕對非同凡響?！酰ㄉ袝x 譯）

WA:In your opinion, what are the connections between architectural space and teaching?

KK:Well yes there is important connection, because we have experienced with the shift it made a huge impact.It has shaken the institutional aspect of teaching. Louis Kahn said: for teaching, what you need is a place where you sit under the tree, you make a circle together and you have a teaching situation, teacher and students under a tree. To a certain extent that is true, so teaching is possible under very different conditions, but it always happens among people. Teaching is about the exchange of knowledge and information. When there is a necessity to organize teaching at larger scale, to institutionalize it, then the question of the type of facilities you need becomes relevant. Say how many trees you need with people under it, and how many big trees and small trees or big rooms or small rooms and how many meeting places, and also, so what kind of settlement or layout to make, for the institute to function. So for teaching, not with standing studio or seminar or big lectures or informal discussions, you need students to feel comfortable, and you prefer the students to work at the school rather than them staying at home, so you want them to come to the building and do their work there.

7 模型室二層/First floor of model room

8 模型室二層/First floor of model room

9 公共走廊及服務(wù)設(shè)施/The public corridor and service facilities

10 公共走廊及服務(wù)設(shè)施/The public corridor and service facilities

11 首層平面/Gronud floor plan

項目信息/Credits and Data

攝影/Photos: Braaksma en Roos (fig.1, 12, 15), Fokkema architecten (fig.3, 4), Kossmann de Jong (fig.5, 9, 10), Octatube (fig.7, 8, 13), General (fig. 11)

12 橘色大廳/Orange room

13 橘色大廳/Orange room

14 餐廳/Canteen（圖片來源/Source: 代爾夫特理工大學(xué)建筑學(xué)院提供/TU Delft）

15 室內(nèi)咖啡吧/Espresso Bar（16圖片來源/Source: 代爾夫特理工大學(xué)建筑學(xué)院提供/TU Delft）

16 室內(nèi)咖啡吧/Espresso Bar（16圖片來源/Source: 代爾夫特理工大學(xué)建筑學(xué)院提供/TU Delft）

So the building has to provide a large scale of different facilities in different places, for the students to feel connected, to feel that they want to be there, so I don't have the sort of recipe for an ideal teaching space. It is such a complex question, but I think that, the bottom line is exchange and meeting, and I think that is super important for a pleasure place of education.

WA:How about the mixed functions of the review space or the exhibition space?

KK:I think the most of the spaces have relatively dedicated character, for example, the model room is mostly used for models.

WA:But sometimes, the presentation and exhibition can happen in the same time and same place.

KK:Well, I would say it's not so easy that we mix in BK City two difference things. There would be a larger exhibition space for graduation exhibitions, so that at events we do very often or sometimes we have to do that object. The other thing is the store, because our students doing the models, and we have to storage them now and then, because the classrooms have to be empty and clean, studio spaces have to be empty for new studios and then we want to keep the models for presentation, at the end of three semesters I want to make an exhibition but two storage is the work of the students, that's really problematic, we simply don't have this place for that so that it's still a problem. I think it is important also to consider both exhibition and storage.

WA:So you mean in terms of usage, it's more like leaving the place to be occupied, and then we discover our function and reinterpreted with this place?

KK:I think it depends on density. I do think we have pressure, and cannot use the place with flexibility. It automatically occurs, especially when a high pressure on the space exists. That's not only in an educational facility but also happens in cities already, so when there's a lot of pressure on the usage, people become automatically creative, tolerant and flexible. In BK we have a very high pressure. We have a huge facility, but still it always fully filled and crammed and it's really very intensely used, of course there are also very quiet moments, but that has to do with the system of education. All the programs are sort of running in parallels, so everybody has his presentations in the same weeks, everything runs in parallel, so there are very quiet weeks, and then there are the weeks that you need three times the building. In that sense, it would be more practical not to run everything in parallel, because you have this academic calendar, a very strong demarcation of semesters and quarters, periods for exams, so you always have the peaks of use of the building. It is complicate.

WA:After fire, what happened to the original building?

KK:It was not a little fire. The fire completely and totally burned down the building and it disappeared entirely. So it was really collapsed, after that, there was nothing left but ashes, so that's why we went to the other building, originally with the intention as a temporary place, and then to build a new building. That temporary solution turned out to be okay, let's us simply stay there.

WA:As we know, a part of the areas was designed by MVRDV, what do you think about it?

KK:I like it very much, it's very nice places. It's one of the courtyards that they made the lecture facilities in it, the orange stairs, and I think it's very nice, at the stairs students can sit and hang around. Sometimes lectures take place there, and it works as one of the central spaces in the building.

WA:In BK City, which part of the building is most popular for the students? How about the users' feedback?

KK:I'm not sure, because I never interviewed the students. There are different rooms that are very much liked, but it seems they do like the cafe outside, especially on sunny days, it can be very crowded there. So there's really a hot spot as you can say, also the espresso bar is really a meeting point, it's very much liked. I think the students also like very much the model room, it's a very good place, it's very big spectacle, and it's nice to work there and see all the models and see different students at work. The orange room, I think, is also much liked, and also much appreciated, because there is a very strong character, it's sort of a icon for the BK City. You could say it is one of the wonderful places that is photographed a lot, but then there are also educational areas like those in the east wing, the ground floor space which is a very big nice studio, and you can work with at least hundred students, it's super nice and fantastic.□(Proofread by LIU Yishi)

Faculty of Architecture and the Built Environment, Delft University of Technology

Interview with Kees Kaan

Interviewed by TIAN Ni

采訪時間：2017-07-15