采訪:莫非

左:瑪莎·施瓦茨；右:莫非

2019年11月20 —21日，上海交通大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)學(xué)院召開(kāi)首屆設(shè)計(jì)教育理念國(guó)際研討會(huì)，來(lái)自國(guó)內(nèi)外近百位知名院校的學(xué)者、設(shè)計(jì)教育專(zhuān)家及設(shè)計(jì)大師受邀參會(huì)，與會(huì)嘉賓是來(lái)自風(fēng)景園林學(xué)、建筑學(xué)、城市規(guī)劃學(xué)、設(shè)計(jì)學(xué)領(lǐng)域的領(lǐng)軍人物。此次會(huì)議旨在探討設(shè)計(jì)教育如何應(yīng)對(duì)當(dāng)下人類(lèi)社會(huì)面臨的重大挑戰(zhàn)，以及設(shè)計(jì)教育背后的倫理和技術(shù)問(wèn)題。應(yīng)邀作大會(huì)主旨報(bào)告的發(fā)言人瑪莎·施瓦茨教授，在參會(huì)期間，接受了本刊特約編輯莫非老師的專(zhuān)訪，就其在設(shè)計(jì)教育、實(shí)踐及研究方面的哲學(xué)思考展開(kāi)了深入探討。

LAJ:《風(fēng)景園林》雜志

Martha:瑪莎·施瓦茨

LAJ:施瓦茲教授，很榮幸能有機(jī)會(huì)在上海交通大學(xué)與您探討風(fēng)景園林設(shè)計(jì)教育，在對(duì)交大的學(xué)生設(shè)計(jì)作業(yè)進(jìn)行點(diǎn)評(píng)后，您認(rèn)為交大風(fēng)景園林設(shè)計(jì)教學(xué)的主要優(yōu)勢(shì)是什么？

Martha:被邀請(qǐng)到上海交通大學(xué)并有機(jī)會(huì)與學(xué)生交流是我的榮幸。同學(xué)們豐富的知識(shí)令我印象深刻，并且能夠?qū)⑵溥\(yùn)用到對(duì)場(chǎng)地環(huán)境、社會(huì)等要素的分析評(píng)價(jià)中。他們對(duì)氣候變化有著非常全面的認(rèn)識(shí)，甚至提出通過(guò)引入社區(qū)參與機(jī)制來(lái)應(yīng)對(duì)氣候變化。同學(xué)們學(xué)習(xí)了多樣的設(shè)計(jì)理念及實(shí)踐案例，并展現(xiàn)出通過(guò)構(gòu)建新的體系，建立使多方受益的“良性循環(huán)”的能力。

LAJ:您認(rèn)為教授風(fēng)景園林設(shè)計(jì)最好的方法是什么？可以談?wù)勀诵牡慕虒W(xué)理念嗎？

Martha:我最根本的教學(xué)理念是幫助學(xué)生認(rèn)識(shí)自我，并找到表達(dá)個(gè)人設(shè)計(jì)理念的方式。我從不教學(xué)生我怎么做，也不教他們按我的想法去思考。我認(rèn)為，教設(shè)計(jì)最好的方法是幫助學(xué)生去發(fā)掘自己的感受，認(rèn)識(shí)自己擁有什么，作為一個(gè)人，有什么是從內(nèi)而外的、可以給予外界的東西。我堅(jiān)信這也是培養(yǎng)創(chuàng)造力的關(guān)鍵。

在從事了28年的設(shè)計(jì)教學(xué)之后，我逐漸認(rèn)識(shí)到，必須讓設(shè)計(jì)師或藝術(shù)家來(lái)教設(shè)計(jì)。設(shè)計(jì)不能讓沒(méi)有足夠設(shè)計(jì)或藝術(shù)創(chuàng)造經(jīng)驗(yàn)的人來(lái)教。創(chuàng)造，首先是從內(nèi)在產(chǎn)生的，是個(gè)性化的嘗試，所以我們每個(gè)人的創(chuàng)作過(guò)程各不相同。但是，藝術(shù)家和設(shè)計(jì)師可以用自己的視角和經(jīng)驗(yàn)教別人如何進(jìn)行設(shè)計(jì)。好的藝術(shù)或設(shè)計(jì)學(xué)校不存在適合所有人的課程或老師。舉例來(lái)說(shuō)，哈佛大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)研究生院有許多設(shè)計(jì)師，而且每年還會(huì)邀請(qǐng)來(lái)自世界各地的設(shè)計(jì)師，開(kāi)展設(shè)計(jì)課教學(xué)，這樣就會(huì)有非常多樣的想法、方法、美學(xué)和哲學(xué)思想給予學(xué)生，并由學(xué)生去尋找自己的方向和想法。設(shè)計(jì)教學(xué)必須教會(huì)學(xué)生如何自由而批判地思考。

我認(rèn)為設(shè)計(jì)不能通過(guò)計(jì)算機(jī)來(lái)教，我的設(shè)計(jì)課（圖1、2）、設(shè)計(jì)實(shí)踐在設(shè)計(jì)概念階段都要求手繪（圖3）。原因很簡(jiǎn)單，計(jì)算機(jī)并不能培養(yǎng)人的創(chuàng)造力。參數(shù)化設(shè)計(jì)使用算法能將一個(gè)構(gòu)想演化為數(shù)百種變體，但是最初進(jìn)入計(jì)算機(jī)的想法只是一個(gè)。從這個(gè)角度來(lái)說(shuō)，這是一種對(duì)想法的“垂直”探索，限制了“水平”思維，最終產(chǎn)生的想法會(huì)更少。而通過(guò)手繪進(jìn)行設(shè)計(jì)時(shí)，是視覺(jué)思維，構(gòu)圖、觀察、思考、評(píng)估、修改、塑形等同時(shí)進(jìn)行；設(shè)計(jì)過(guò)程更流暢、更快捷、更易產(chǎn)生新想法、也更有尺度感。只有通過(guò)眼和手的協(xié)作，才能培養(yǎng)非線性的直覺(jué)思維。

1 瑪莎在設(shè)計(jì)課上對(duì)學(xué)生手繪的概念設(shè)計(jì)方案進(jìn)行指導(dǎo)（2020年春季的哈佛大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)課）Conceptual design drawing tutorial at Martha Schwartz's design studio (Graduate School of Design, Harvard University, 2020)

2 應(yīng)對(duì)氣候變化的未來(lái)城市景觀總體規(guī)劃方案（瑪莎2020春季設(shè)計(jì)課:Holyoke未來(lái)城市景觀規(guī)劃）A master plan of the future urban landscape in responding to climate change (Martha Schwartz's 2020 Design Studio:Landscape Planning of the Holyoke Future City)

3 北京北七家科技商業(yè)園設(shè)計(jì)概念手繪圖（瑪莎·施瓦茨合伙人事務(wù)所設(shè)計(jì)）Beijing Beiqijia Technology Business District conceptual design sketch (Designed by Martha Schwartz Partners)

在設(shè)計(jì)教學(xué)中，我們必須提升對(duì)直覺(jué)的價(jià)值的認(rèn)識(shí)，并通過(guò)加強(qiáng)相關(guān)訓(xùn)練，激發(fā)學(xué)生的潛力。直覺(jué)（或稱(chēng)“非線性思維”）就好比一個(gè)混亂的蜘蛛網(wǎng)，比“線性邏輯”能建立更多隨機(jī)連接，從而在設(shè)計(jì)過(guò)程中產(chǎn)生新的想法（圖4）。我是一個(gè)“直覺(jué)”式思維的人，這意味著我可能不知不覺(jué)地接收了很多信息，然后在沒(méi)有使用任何線性分析的情況下，內(nèi)心就被某種事物吸引了（或覺(jué)得不感興趣）—一件雕塑、一個(gè)想法、森林里的一棵樹(shù)，或者也許是一個(gè)人。如果我被吸引了，我會(huì)進(jìn)一步進(jìn)行線性分析式思考，去理解到底什么吸引了我。但是，我最初的反應(yīng)，是讓我的大腦通過(guò)直覺(jué)，去找到那些使我好奇或感興趣的點(diǎn)。對(duì)于設(shè)計(jì)師和藝術(shù)家來(lái)說(shuō)，在頭腦中建立這一“門(mén)戶(hù)”至關(guān)重要，會(huì)幫助你認(rèn)識(shí)自我（你喜歡什么、不喜歡什么、被什么吸引等）。對(duì)于任何成功的藝術(shù)家或設(shè)計(jì)師而言，知道自己是誰(shuí)都是必要的。

4 直覺(jué)思維類(lèi)似“蜘蛛網(wǎng)”結(jié)構(gòu)Intuitive thinking like a spider's web

最后，如果一個(gè)人對(duì)藝術(shù)不感興趣，那他就不能成為“完整”的設(shè)計(jì)師。藝術(shù)家是視覺(jué)領(lǐng)域的“研究者”，從研究現(xiàn)有的藝術(shù)形式開(kāi)始，對(duì)其進(jìn)行探索，然后進(jìn)行延伸或重新詮釋。熱愛(ài)藝術(shù)意味著需要保持好奇心，挑戰(zhàn)現(xiàn)狀，行事和思維都須打破常規(guī)。為什么藝術(shù)家經(jīng)常被視為“激進(jìn)”，因?yàn)樗麄兲魬?zhàn)了大多數(shù)人認(rèn)為的“正常”或“傳統(tǒng)”，而他們所謂的對(duì)“正常”感興趣，也只是為了通過(guò)探索新的觀察、思考和制作方式來(lái)挑戰(zhàn)它。這就是藝術(shù)家做的事情，也因此他們對(duì)文化和社會(huì)發(fā)展如此重要。我們的教育不僅是培養(yǎng)學(xué)生的審美，更要鼓勵(lì)他們像藝術(shù)家一樣自由而批判地思考，充滿(mǎn)好奇和勇氣。

LAJ:上海交通大學(xué)的學(xué)生背景非常多樣，其中有一部分學(xué)生在進(jìn)大學(xué)前有美術(shù)基礎(chǔ)，但相當(dāng)一部分學(xué)生沒(méi)有相關(guān)經(jīng)驗(yàn)，哈佛大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)研究生院是什么情況？

Martha:哈佛大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)研究生院也有類(lèi)似的情況，我們學(xué)生的背景非常多樣，這本身是一件很好的事。真正的挑戰(zhàn)是如何幫助學(xué)生克服“對(duì)設(shè)計(jì)的畏懼”，這是最常見(jiàn)的也最難克服的障礙。較晚開(kāi)始接受設(shè)計(jì)教育的學(xué)生，因?yàn)楹ε率?，往往?huì)很猶豫，不敢表現(xiàn)自己。哈佛的學(xué)生并不習(xí)慣失敗，這種對(duì)于手繪和構(gòu)圖的猶豫不決，是一座學(xué)生們難以翻越的高山。

犯錯(cuò)是一件好事！作為教師要允許學(xué)生犯錯(cuò)，并培養(yǎng)“嘗試—失敗—重試”的毅力。如果做到了這一點(diǎn)，學(xué)生將逐漸能擺脫“對(duì)設(shè)計(jì)的恐懼”從而開(kāi)始越做越好。在手繪過(guò)程中，犯錯(cuò)是更能直觀感受到的學(xué)習(xí)過(guò)程，因?yàn)樵谑掷L時(shí)，可以很容易地識(shí)別出自己不喜歡的東西，然后重畫(huà)，直到畫(huà)到“正確”為止，這本身就是學(xué)習(xí)的過(guò)程。

另外，必須要有足夠的時(shí)間進(jìn)行基礎(chǔ)性訓(xùn)練，幫助學(xué)生來(lái)適應(yīng)設(shè)計(jì)課程。比如教會(huì)學(xué)生如何觀察，建立藝術(shù)基礎(chǔ)，動(dòng)手制作模型，通過(guò)3D思維進(jìn)行批判性的思考，這樣慢慢地才能建立足夠的信心開(kāi)始自己的探索。

LAJ:您提到在設(shè)計(jì)方面認(rèn)識(shí)自我的重要性，但要了解自己的喜好和在設(shè)計(jì)方面的天賦并不容易。在這一點(diǎn)上您有什么特別的建議嗎？

Martha:這確實(shí)不容易，就設(shè)計(jì)而言，最基本的是訓(xùn)練“看”的能力。比如思考你會(huì)被什么所吸引？展現(xiàn)在你眼前的究竟是什么？材質(zhì)意味著什么？對(duì)不同的顏色和空間我們會(huì)有什么不同的反應(yīng)？如果讓你畫(huà)畫(huà)，你究竟會(huì)如何詮釋光影在水面上的跳躍？很多時(shí)候我們看了卻沒(méi)有思考。我喜歡和別人一起旅行去看藝術(shù)作品，并問(wèn)他們最喜歡其中哪些部分。我們也一起做各種實(shí)驗(yàn)，比如在一個(gè)盒子里做一個(gè)小型設(shè)計(jì)，并試著詮釋它。以此來(lái)真正感受與了解：為什么我要這么做？為什么我覺(jué)得它重要？如何才能通過(guò)某種設(shè)計(jì)形式把想法表達(dá)出來(lái)？通過(guò)這個(gè)過(guò)程，訓(xùn)練他人相信直覺(jué)，并認(rèn)識(shí)與表達(dá)自我。有時(shí)候人們不敢表達(dá)自我的想法，是因?yàn)楹ε略馐芘u(píng)，但克服這種恐懼真的不容易。我想，很重要的一點(diǎn)是幫助對(duì)方認(rèn)識(shí)到，自己才能決定自己的喜好，而不是他人。

LAJ:就設(shè)計(jì)而言，您最根本的設(shè)計(jì)哲學(xué)是什么？

Martha:我會(huì)考慮設(shè)計(jì)的很多方面。從根本上說(shuō)，設(shè)計(jì)是一種創(chuàng)造的行為。是的，我們解決問(wèn)題，但是設(shè)計(jì)必須超越解決問(wèn)題的層面，僅僅是“解決問(wèn)題”還不夠。作為設(shè)計(jì)師，我們決定該如何設(shè)計(jì)。通過(guò)設(shè)計(jì)，我們要實(shí)現(xiàn)的、也是最后最重要的一步—建立與使用者的情感聯(lián)系。建立這種情感聯(lián)系可以給使用者帶來(lái)另一個(gè)層次的情感體驗(yàn)，比如創(chuàng)造記憶，引發(fā)驚喜或好奇，還有當(dāng)我們感受美好事物時(shí)會(huì)產(chǎn)生的愉悅感。

LAJ:您有沒(méi)有最喜歡的作品，比如一項(xiàng)最能反映您的設(shè)計(jì)哲學(xué)的建成作品？

Martha:我實(shí)在無(wú)法對(duì)自己的作品進(jìn)行排名，就像無(wú)法在自己的孩子里選出哪個(gè)最好，這是不可能的。但是和他人共同創(chuàng)作的一些藝術(shù)裝置至今令我印象最為深刻，因?yàn)槠渲刑N(yùn)含了很多回憶。面包圈花園對(duì)我來(lái)說(shuō)依然是一個(gè)十分難忘的作品，它同時(shí)給我?guī)?lái)羈絆和幸運(yùn)，這正是它如此特別的原因。

LAJ:能不能詳細(xì)談?wù)劄槭裁疵姘▓@如此特別？

Martha:它起源于一個(gè)微不足道的想法，創(chuàng)作之初我只是想開(kāi)個(gè)玩笑，給出差回來(lái)的丈夫一個(gè)“驚喜聚會(huì)”。我用面包圈在我們波士頓后灣區(qū)的房子前造了這個(gè)花園（圖5）。當(dāng)時(shí)來(lái)參加聚會(huì)的朋友鼓勵(lì)我把照片發(fā)給美國(guó)風(fēng)景園林師協(xié)會(huì)（ASLA）的官方雜志—Landscape Architecture Magazine。雜志主編格雷迪·克萊（Grady Clay）①回復(fù)說(shuō)他愿意發(fā)表這個(gè)作品，但是我必須寫(xiě)明為什么我要設(shè)計(jì)面包圈花園。

5 面包圈花園The Bagel Garden

當(dāng)時(shí)，我對(duì)風(fēng)景園林行業(yè)非常批判。以我個(gè)人長(zhǎng)期的藝術(shù)積累和對(duì)藝術(shù)界發(fā)展的了解，我看到風(fēng)景園林行業(yè)使用的設(shè)計(jì)語(yǔ)言非常局限，而形式又幾乎千篇一律的“現(xiàn)代主義”，我對(duì)當(dāng)時(shí)一味追求優(yōu)質(zhì)的材料和精細(xì)的細(xì)節(jié)的風(fēng)氣感到沮喪。

我那篇介紹面包圈花園的文章，找了很多理由來(lái)說(shuō)明為什么面包圈是一種“合適的材料”：“面包不貴（比起植物材料便宜多了）、易獲?。ㄔ诮纸堑男〉昃涂少I(mǎi)到）、易于維護(hù)（不需要澆水或除草）、不需要陽(yáng)光（對(duì)于這個(gè)朝北的花園來(lái)說(shuō)是必須考慮的因素）?！逼鋵?shí)我就是在找些“理由”以自圓其說(shuō)，而真正想通過(guò)這個(gè)作品表達(dá)的內(nèi)容寫(xiě)在后面一段：

“當(dāng)前藝術(shù)界有大量的新的材料和空間組織的想法可以引入到景觀設(shè)計(jì)中。從社會(huì)的角度而言，使用我們傳統(tǒng)的主流材料和施工技術(shù)的造價(jià)日益攀升，使得我們提供的服務(wù)，遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)超出了本該極大地受益于我們的才華的人們的經(jīng)濟(jì)承受能力，特別是那些生活在衰落的城區(qū)的人群。然而，我們必須謹(jǐn)記：設(shè)計(jì)的本質(zhì)不是材料，而是和不同形式的空間的關(guān)系。”[1]

面包圈花園作為L(zhǎng)andscape ArchitectureMagazine1980年1月封面刊登（圖6）， 同期刊載了我介紹這個(gè)花園的設(shè)計(jì)理念的文章（圖7、8）。由于這是ASLA的官方刊物，在當(dāng)時(shí)引來(lái)了巨大的爭(zhēng)議。在同年5月，該雜志又以《面包圈花園：響亮而清晰》為題，刊登了持不同立場(chǎng)的讀者來(lái)信[2]，足見(jiàn)當(dāng)時(shí)這一作品的發(fā)表對(duì)業(yè)界產(chǎn)生的思想沖擊。比如有的人批評(píng)說(shuō)它實(shí)在太丑了！但也有很多人持不同觀點(diǎn)，認(rèn)為這是一個(gè)有趣的作品，或許我們應(yīng)該換個(gè)角度來(lái)思考。

6 面包圈花園刊于美國(guó)Landscape Architecture Magazine 1980年第1期封面，由美國(guó)Landscape Architecture Magazine授權(quán)重印The Bagel Garden was published on the front cover of the Landscape Architecture Magazine in January 1980. Republished with permission from Landscape Architecture Magazine

7 面包圈花園的平面設(shè)計(jì)圖[1]44The plan of the Bagel Garden[1]44

8 面包圈花園剖面圖[1]45The section drawing of the Bagel Garden [1]45

其實(shí)，爭(zhēng)議的根源在于我們到底應(yīng)該如何與景觀產(chǎn)生連接？為什么景觀設(shè)計(jì)就不能抽象？為什么不能引發(fā)爭(zhēng)議？為什么不能是未來(lái)主義的？為什么要看上去恰當(dāng)合宜？這個(gè)作品本身引發(fā)的爭(zhēng)議和思考，在當(dāng)時(shí)促進(jìn)了行業(yè)的轉(zhuǎn)變，但這與格雷迪·克萊以及Landscape Architecture Magazine的勇氣密不可分。

LAJ:一幅封面照片為何可以引發(fā)如此巨大的影響？

Martha:這就好像一個(gè)想法、一幅畫(huà)、一本書(shū)何以改變世界。沒(méi)有為什么，該發(fā)生的時(shí)候就發(fā)生了。這就是為什么我們認(rèn)為某些人或事物重要。作為一個(gè)個(gè)體，你也可以改變世界。甘地、畢加索、《圣經(jīng)》，哪個(gè)沒(méi)有給世界帶來(lái)深刻改變？做和別人不一樣的事情是一種冒險(xiǎn)，因?yàn)榉彩驴傆写鷥r(jià)，它總是困難的。但格雷迪·克萊就是一位英雄，如果不是他，我不確定這個(gè)行業(yè)現(xiàn)在會(huì)成什么樣。

LAJ:感謝您與我們分享面包圈花園背后的故事，可以從設(shè)計(jì)師的角度，再列舉幾個(gè)您所喜愛(ài)的設(shè)計(jì)嗎？

Martha:我最喜愛(ài)的設(shè)計(jì)包含一些小型的藝術(shù)裝置和幾個(gè)大型項(xiàng)目。如懷特海德研究所拼接花園（圖9）、邁阿密音墻、致敬奴隸婦女的“斯波萊托節(jié)”（圖10）、戴維斯住宅花園（圖11）、瑞士再保險(xiǎn)公司花園（圖12）、梅薩表演藝術(shù)中心花園（圖13）、大地藝術(shù)項(xiàng)目“IBA電源線”（圖14）、明日之城“馬爾默·柳”園（圖15）、51個(gè)花園裝飾品園（圖16）、鋁礬土-雷克雅未克當(dāng)代藝術(shù)博物館、2011西安世界園藝博覽會(huì)“城市與自然的和諧關(guān)系”展園（圖17）、重慶火鍋園（圖18）。還有一些未建成的，那個(gè)名單就太長(zhǎng)了！

9 懷特海德研究所拼接花園Whitehead Institute Splice Garden

10 “斯波萊托節(jié)”致敬奴隸婦女Spoleto Festival Tribute to Slave Women

11 戴維斯住宅花園Davis Residence Garden

12 瑞士再保險(xiǎn)公司總部花園Swiss Re Headquarter Garden

13 梅薩藝術(shù)中心花園Mesa Arts Center Garden

15 明日之城（馬爾默·柳）City of Tomorrow (Malmo Willow)

14 IBA電源線IBA Power Lines

17 西安世界園藝博覽會(huì)“城市與自然的和諧關(guān)系”展園Xi'an International Horticultural Exposition “The Harmonious Relationship Between City and Nature”

16 51個(gè)花園裝飾品園51 Garden Ornaments

18 重慶火鍋園Chongqing Hot Pot Garden

LAJ:您是出色的設(shè)計(jì)師、教育家、藝術(shù)家，請(qǐng)問(wèn)您在眾多角色中是如何平衡的？

Martha:我并不認(rèn)為自己的每個(gè)角色都稱(chēng)得上出色。我是一位母親和妻子，我有自己的事務(wù)所，都需要投入很多精力，我還教學(xué)，現(xiàn)在我正在建立一個(gè)應(yīng)對(duì)氣候變化的非營(yíng)利組織，確實(shí)在做很多事情，很難面面俱到。對(duì)我來(lái)說(shuō)，家庭角色始終是最重要的，但平衡各種角色確實(shí)很不容易。我有3個(gè)孩子，最難的是如何平衡工作和家庭，估計(jì)絕大多數(shù)職業(yè)女性都會(huì)有同感。

我很幸運(yùn)有自己的事務(wù)所，可以在同一個(gè)地方工作和生活，這對(duì)于有孩子的女性來(lái)說(shuō)是一種理想的狀態(tài)，但大多數(shù)女性并沒(méi)有這樣的條件。在我年輕的時(shí)候，如果我不能一邊工作，一邊照顧孩子，我可能會(huì)選擇待在家里。一路走來(lái)，我做了很多選擇。特別是關(guān)于我應(yīng)該去哪？做些什么？是不是該為了一些事情而放棄另外一些？我只能說(shuō)我做得還不錯(cuò)?，F(xiàn)在我比以往更加重視教學(xué)，當(dāng)我年輕的時(shí)候，我會(huì)更愿意去實(shí)現(xiàn)設(shè)計(jì)構(gòu)想，看到設(shè)計(jì)作品的建成，而現(xiàn)在，我更愿意去思考。

我們行業(yè)有相當(dāng)數(shù)量的女性，許多因?yàn)闊o(wú)法兼顧高強(qiáng)度的工作和照顧孩子而選擇了離開(kāi)職場(chǎng)，我完全能理解她們。但我們也必須認(rèn)識(shí)到，如何設(shè)計(jì)、建造工作場(chǎng)所，如何控制工作時(shí)長(zhǎng)，能否建立更有彈性的工作機(jī)制，能不能推動(dòng)對(duì)婦女和兒童更具支持性的政策實(shí)施，這些都會(huì)影響很多人的人生選擇，而這需要我們共同努力。

LAJ:您認(rèn)為風(fēng)景園林研究在未來(lái)環(huán)境發(fā)展中會(huì)扮演怎樣的角色？

Martha:有很多事情我們可以做,我的研究重點(diǎn)關(guān)注城市區(qū)域，因?yàn)榈?050年，全球會(huì)有約70%的人口生活在城市?，F(xiàn)在全球的城市有太多的環(huán)境問(wèn)題需要解決，比如城市的熱島效應(yīng)會(huì)影響很多人，還有特別重要的貧民問(wèn)題。水資源管理、食物獲取、氣候變化等會(huì)給城市環(huán)境造成壓力的議題，都能成為我們的研究機(jī)會(huì)。如果能夠找到某種更好地將設(shè)計(jì)理念與技術(shù)產(chǎn)業(yè)相結(jié)合的方法，更有可能運(yùn)用技術(shù)來(lái)改進(jìn)生態(tài)服務(wù)。

脫碳（decarbonization）會(huì)是一個(gè)很有潛力的研究方向。世界的土壤、森林、草原、濕地和泥地只吸收了大氣中所有碳的25%，風(fēng)景園林專(zhuān)業(yè)應(yīng)該致力于降低碳含量。如果我們要引導(dǎo)脫碳，就需要學(xué)習(xí)新的思想、設(shè)計(jì)和技術(shù)，這是一個(gè)剛剛起步的會(huì)收益數(shù)萬(wàn)億美元的產(chǎn)業(yè)。當(dāng)建筑師和建筑商將二氧化碳排放到大氣中時(shí)，風(fēng)景園林設(shè)計(jì)師要知道如何進(jìn)行脫碳，這是我們必須要了解的。

在我看來(lái)，我們領(lǐng)域充滿(mǎn)了研究機(jī)會(huì)，但如果僅僅認(rèn)為我們專(zhuān)業(yè)的核心任務(wù)就是做設(shè)計(jì)，那知識(shí)面就會(huì)過(guò)于狹窄。事實(shí)上，我們?cè)搅私馑娴氖澜?，就越能產(chǎn)生富有創(chuàng)造力的想法和發(fā)明。很多時(shí)候，我們的創(chuàng)造力受到抑制是因?yàn)槲覀儧](méi)有去懂得更多。比如我們學(xué)院會(huì)與機(jī)械工程、地球科學(xué)等學(xué)院展開(kāi)緊密合作，因?yàn)槲覀儽仨殞?duì)整個(gè)地球系統(tǒng)有更全面的認(rèn)識(shí)。我們正在面臨全球范圍氣候變化的影響，只有理解了“地球系統(tǒng)”（earth system），才能在全球范圍內(nèi)達(dá)成更多共識(shí)并開(kāi)展行動(dòng)。我們的生態(tài)思維必須從本地或區(qū)域的規(guī)模范圍轉(zhuǎn)變?yōu)椤暗厍蛳到y(tǒng)”規(guī)模（全球范圍）的思維。

致謝：

特別感謝上海交通大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)學(xué)院、風(fēng)景園林系，瑪莎·施瓦茨合伙人事務(wù)所紐約部、上海部對(duì)本次專(zhuān)訪的支持。

中文稿審校：王云（上海交通大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)學(xué)院風(fēng)景園林系主任、教授）、李清韻（上海交通大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)學(xué)院風(fēng)景園林系本科生）。

英文稿審校：瑪莎·施瓦茨（哈佛大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)研究生院教授）、金伯利·特里巴（瑪莎·施瓦茨合伙人事務(wù)所商務(wù)發(fā)展總監(jiān)）、亞伯拉罕·扎姆查克（上海交通大學(xué)博士候選人）。采訪稿整理與校對(duì)：李清韻、杜柳君、吳哲群；攝影及圖片處理：唐飛龍、吳蔚文、黃際澍、吳炯（以上均為上海交通大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)學(xué)院學(xué)生）。

注釋?zhuān)?/p>

① 格雷迪·克萊（Grady Clay）1960—1984年擔(dān)任美國(guó)Landscape Architecture Magazine主編，被譽(yù)為無(wú)所畏懼的格雷迪·克萊，詳見(jiàn):https://landscapearchitecturemagazine.org/2013/03/20/grady-clay/。

圖片來(lái)源：

采訪現(xiàn)場(chǎng)圖由吳蔚文攝，黃際澍后期處理。圖1、5、9～18由瑪莎·施瓦茨合伙人事務(wù)所紐約部提供，并授權(quán)刊登。圖2由哈佛大學(xué)設(shè)計(jì)研究生院2019級(jí)學(xué)生陳海納提供并授權(quán)刊登，李清韻后期處理。圖3由瑪莎·施瓦茨合伙人事務(wù)所上海部提供，并授權(quán)刊登。圖4由莫非拍攝。圖6～8原圖刊登于美國(guó)Landscape Architecture Magazine1980年1月刊，瑪莎·施瓦茨合伙人事務(wù)所紐約部授權(quán)刊登，Landscape Architecture Magazine授權(quán)轉(zhuǎn)載。

From Explorer to Pioneer:Martha Schwartz's Philosophy of Design Education, Practice and Research

On November 20th and 21st, 2019, the first International Symposium on the Idea of Design Education was held at the School of Design, Shanghai Jiao Tong University (SJTU). Over 100 eminent educators, scholars and practitioners from world renowned universities and colleges in China and abroad were invited. They are leaders from landscape architecture, architecture, urban planning and design backgrounds. The symposium was intended to discuss how design education can cope with the grand challenges facing humanity today, including related ethical and technical issues.Professor Martha Schwartz, who was invited as a keynote speaker, was interviewed by our contributing editor Ms. MO Fei during the event.A comprehensive discussion on her philosophy of design education, practice and research was carried out at SJTU.

LAJ:Landscape Architecture Journal

此外，各級(jí)財(cái)政部門(mén)在推動(dòng)水利投融資體制改革，深化小型水利設(shè)施產(chǎn)權(quán)制度改革，探索農(nóng)業(yè)水價(jià)綜合改革，大力發(fā)展農(nóng)民用水合作組織，實(shí)施最嚴(yán)格的水資源管理制度等方面也出臺(tái)了一系列支持政策。

Martha:Martha Schwartz

LAJ:Professor Schwartz, it's my honor to discuss landscape design and education with you at Shanghai Jiao Tong University. After reviewing students' work at SJTU, what do you think are the main strengths of landscape design teaching here?

Martha:It is my great honor to be invited to be here, and to have the opportunity to interact with students at SJTU. I was impressed by the amount of knowledge the students have so they can assess environmental and social issues and problems on sites. They have a very holistic comprehension of what is happening about climate change and even suggest including community involvement. They are very well equipped with a huge variety of different ideas and practices and demonstrated solutions that create systems, or“virtuous cycles” of benefits.

LAJ:What do you think is the best way to teach design? Could you share some core teaching philosophy?

Martha:My fundamental teaching philosophy is to help students to understand themselves, to find their own design language through which they can express themselves. Above all, I do not to teach students what I do, or to think what I think. I teach to help each student to discover what they feel and what they have, as an individual, something inside of themselves to offer others. These are the most important things I can do to teach design. I believe this is also the key to cultivate creativity.

After having 28 years teaching design, I have come to recognize that we must have designers and/or artists to teach design. Design cannot be taught through someone without enough experience designing and making things. Creation is a personal endeavor; it comes from within an individual and therefore our processes for creation are all different. But artists and designers can teach others to design, using their own perspective and experience. A one-size-fits-all curriculum or teacher does not exist in good art/design school. As an example, at the GSD there are many designers in the faculty, and we have designers from around the world to teach studios every year. A great variety of ideas, methods, aesthetics and philosophies are offered to the students. It is up to the student to find their own directions and ideas. Design education must teach students how to think freely and critically.

I believe we cannot use computer to teach people how to design; drawing by hand is required to generate design ideas in my studios (Fig. 1, 2)and practice (Fig. 3). The reason is simple, the computer is not a device for teaching creativity.Parametric design uses algorithms, a program that takes a form (one idea) to produce hundreds of variations of. However, the original idea that is put into the computer is only one. In this sense, it is a “vertical” exploration of one idea, and limits“horizontal” thinking, meaning there are less ideas that are generated eventually. Sketching ideas are visual thinking, making form while observing,thinking, evaluating, revising and shaping all happen at the same time. The design process goes more smoothly, quicker, with a better sense of scale. New ideas can be generated easily. The only way to cultivate non- linear intuitive thinking is through the coordination between hands and eyes.

Lastly, one cannot be a complete designer if not interested in art. Artists are the “researchers”of the visual realm. Artists often start with studying existing forms of art, explore it, and then expand or reinterpret it. This means that they wish to test a new idea or aesthetic that has not existed yet. In order to do this, artists are very inquisitive,challenge the status quo, and break into doing and thinking in another way. This is why artists are often viewed as “radical”, because they are challenging what most people consider “normal”,or “traditional”. They are interested in what is“normal” only to challenge it through exploring new ways of seeing, thinking, and making. That are what artists do. It is why they are so important to cultural and societal evolution. Our education should not only cultivate students' taste of art, but also to encourage them to think freely and critically like artists, full of curiosity and courage.

LAJ:At SJTU, we have students from very diverse backgrounds. Some of them studied art before entering university, but many others do not have relevant experience. What is the situation at GSD?

Martha:We experience similar situations in the GSD where people come from all different backgrounds, which is a very good thing. The real challenge is how to help students to overcome the‘FEAR OF DESIGN”. This is the most common barrier but cannot be overcome easily. People who come into design at a later stage in their education are usually very hesitant to expose themselves because they are afraid of failing. Our students at the GSD are not used to failing. This hesitation to work with one's hands and make shapes is a very large mountain to get the students over.

Making mistakes is a good thing! It is our job as design teachers to allow students to make mistakes, and encourage them to try things, fail and try again perseveringly. If this is done, students will be able to start to design better without the“FEAR OF DESIGN”. Making mistakes is part of the process, which only hand-drawing can provide,as it is easy to recognize something you do not like as you are drawing, and draw over it until you get it“right”. This is a process of learning.

In addition, sufficient time for basic trainings is essential to equip students to adapt design curriculum. Students should be trained to see, to build art foundations, to make models by hands and to think in three dimensions critically, so as to slowly build enough confidence to start exploring on their own.

LAJ:As you have mentioned that developing self-awareness is crucial, may I ask if you have any particular suggestions on how to do this? It seems not easy to understand our preference and gifts in design.

Martha:It is not easy. The most basic thing of design is to learn how to “see”. What kind of things you are attracted to? What allows you to see? What does texture mean? How do we react to colors and space? If you draw, how would you really interpret the light bouncing on this table or water? These are all things everybody sees but we are not thinking about it. I would like to take people on a trip to see art and I will ask them to pick something they really like. We do experiments,a little kind of design in a box, and learn how to interpret it. It is really sensing and getting to understand why I like this, why I feel it is important and how we can express it in forms. Through this process, to help others to trust intuitions, to understand and express themselves. Sometimes people are very hesitating to expose themselves because they might be criticized. It's really up to you to decide whether you like it or not, not others.

LAJ:With regards to landscape design,what is your fundamental design philosophy?

Martha:There are many aspects of design I will have thought about. Fundamentally, design is a creative act. Yes, we solve problems, but design must go beyond problem solving. It is not enough to “solve the problem”. As designers, we give shape to what needs to be done. Through design,we make the last, and perhaps most important step, which is to make an emotional connection to people. Evoking an emotional response from people can bring another level of experience to people, such as the creation of a memory, a sense of wonder or curiosity, and pleasure that is felt when we experience something of beauty.

LAJ:Do you have any favorite personal built work, such as one that represents yourkey design philosophy?

Martha:I really cannot rank my own work,as it is like choosing among your children who is the best, which is not possible. But the works that remain strongest in my mind are the ones I built with others. These were art installations, and are still my favorite because I have so many memories attached to them. The Bagel Garden is still vivid in my mind. It is both a tether and a great piece of luck at the same time and that is why it is so special.

LAJ:Could you tell us a bit more about the Bagel Garden, as it is so special?

Martha:The Bagel Garden came from a very humble beginning. I did it as a funny joke and a‘surprise party' for my husband when he returned from a business trip. I had built this funny garden in front of our house in Backbay, Boston using bagels (Fig. 5). Friends encouraged me to send a picture to the Landscape Architecture Magazine,the official publication of the American Society of Landscape Architects. The editor of the magazine,Grady Clay①, responded, saying he would like to publish this, but I must write WHY I had done the Bagel Garden.

At that time, I was quite critical of the landscape profession. I had a strong background and knowledge of the artworld, landscape design was using very a specific design language and style that was very ‘modernist'. I was very frustrated by the trend that chasing good materials and fine details.

In my article introducing the Bagel Garden, I argued that the bagel was an “appropriate landscape material”, as it is inexpensive (far less costly than plant materials), available (from the corner deli), easy to maintain (requiring no watering or weeding), require no sun (which is essential to this north facing garden). In fact, this was making sense out of nonsense, but a more significant opinion was expressed in the next paragraph:

“There is presently a wealth of new ideas in materials and spatial arrangement which can be translated from the art world into landscape.From a social perspective, the increasing costs of our traditional palette of landscape materials and construction methods has placed our services well beyond the financial reach of people who could most benefit from our talent (particularly those live in depressed urban areas). However, we must remember that design is not intrinsic in materials, it is the relationship of forms in space.”[1]

The photo of Bagel Garden was published on the front cover of theLandscape Architecture Magazinein January, 1980 (Fig. 6), and my article that introduced its design was also published in the same issue (Fig. 7, 8). As it is the official publication of ASLA, the publication of this work brought huge controversy at the time. In May of the year,the magazine published readers' comments in an article entitledThe Bagel Garden:Clear and Loud,which included diverse opinions[2]. This revealed the publication directly impinged professional opinions of landscape design. Some people commented that it is too ugly! But a lot of people said other things,which is like maybe that is interesting, or maybe we could see that in a different way.

The debates commenced from how we and the landscape could start to come together. Why landscape cannot have a content? Why it cannot be conceptual? Why we cannot have a debate about it? Why it cannot be futuristic? Why does it always have to be appropriate? So that is how the transformation started from, but it was also because of the braveness of Grady Clay and theLandscape Architecture Magazine.

LAJ:How can one cover photo bring about such remarkable influences?

Martha:How can one idea change the world?How can one painting change the world? How can one book change the world? This happens because it does. That is why. That's why what we do and why we think things are important. You can change the world as an individual. Karl Marx, Picasso,these are all people who come up with ideas. It is a risky business not to do the same thing as everybody else. You always pay for that. It's always difficult. Grady is a hero. If he didn't do that, I'm not sure the profession would be where it is.

LAJ:Thanks for sharing with us the hidden story of the Bagel Garden. Could you list a few more personal favorite designs from a designer's perspective?

Martha:My favorites include some small art installations, with a few larger projects, such as Whitehead Institute Splice Garden (Fig. 9), Miami Sound Wall, Spoleto Festival Tribute to Slave Women(Fig. 10), Davis Residence Garden (Fig. 11), Swiss Re Headquarter Garden (Fig. 12), Mesa Arts Centre(Fig. 13), IBA Power Lines (Fig. 14), City of Tomorrow - Malmo Willow (Fig. 15), 51 Garden Ornaments (Fig. 16), Aluminati - Reykjavik Museum of contemporary Art, Xi'an International Horticultural Exposition “The Harmonious Relationship Between City and Nature” (Fig. 17) and Chongqing Hot Pot Garden (Fig. 18). There are some favorites that never got built. That list is too long!

LAJ:As an outstanding designer, educator and artist, how can you balance different roles?

Martha:I am not sure if I am successful at all my roles, at any one time. I am a mother, wife,have a practice which is very demanding, I teach,and am building a non-profit organization to fight climate change. Maintaining my family is the most important role. I have three children. I believe trying to balance work and family is the biggest challenge of all. I would guess that most women who are working feel the same.

I have been very lucky to have my own practice, and I have been able to live/work at the same place. This is an ideal situation for women with kids. But most women do not have this privilege. If I had had to leave my children when they were so young, I may have chosen to stay at home. All along the way, I have to make choices about things. I've made lots of choices and decisions about where I am, what I will do or give up one for something else. But in terms of teaching, ifind teaching is a lot more valuable right now. Previously I really just want to build and make things, but now I'm keener to thinking about things.

We lose a lot of women in the field of landscape architecture after having children because the job is rigorous and demanding so they choose to be with their children, which I completely understand. But the way we construct our workplace, hours of work, whether we can establish more flexible working rules and to promote policy that can support women and children, will affect many people's life choices. It is up to us to make changes.

LAJ:In your opinion, what is the role of landscape research for future environmental development?

Martha:There is so much research we can do. I focus on urban area because 70% of human populations are living in cities until 2050. There are so many issues that we need to resolve in cities. Urban heat island effect makes it so people,especially poor people, can't stay in their buildings.People are starting to go out into the streets and green spaces. So how do we capture the water?How do we recycle? How do we integrate different systems? If we could somehow integrate design engineering into our ideas, we could learn how to build technologies that can help us to improve ecological services.

Decarbonization will be a direction that is full of potentiality. The world's soil, forests, grasslands,wetlands and peatlands draw down 25% of all the carbon in the atmosphere. This is the core of our profession. Learning about new ideas, practices,technologies will be essential if we are to lead in decarbonization, which will be a trillion-dollar economy that is just starting now. While architects and builders put CO2into the atmosphere,landscape architects will know methods of how to decarbonize. This is what we must learn about.

These are all things that need to be researched.But if we think our only task is design, we are trapped by only have a little knowledge. The more we understand our world, the more imaginations can invent things. So, we are stopping ourselves from becoming creative without understanding more. Our departments have to start joining with engineering and earth sciences departments. We have to have a much bigger understanding of not just ecology but the earth system which is beyond the scale of ecology. Given we are facing the effects of climate change globally, I believe we should and can step up to the next scale of engagementwhich is the understanding of global systems (the EARTH SYSTEM). We have bump up to a much bigger scale of understanding and action. We must go from the scale of ecological-scale-thinking(local/regional-scale) to earth-system scale thinking(global scale).

Acknowledgments:

Particular thanks are given to the Department of Landscape Architecture, School of Design, Shanghai Jiao Tong University and Martha Schwartz Partner New York and Shanghai Offices.

Chinese Version Proofreaders:Professor WANG Yun, the Head of the Department of Landscape Architecture, SJTU;LI Qingyun, undergraduate student, SJTU.

English Version Proofreaders:Professor Martha Schwarts,GSD, Harvard University; Kimberly Tryba, the Head of Business Development, MSP; Abraham Zamcheck, Ph. D.cardidate, SJTU.

Interview Transcription Developers:LI Qingyun, DU Liujun,WU Zhequn; Photographers:TANG Feilong, WU Weiwen,Huang Jishu, WU Jiong. (The names mentioned above are undergraduate students at SJTU).

Note:

① Grady Clay, known as Fearless Grady Clay, working editor of the Landscape Architecture Magazine from 1960 to 1984. https://landscapearchitecturemagazine.org/2013/03/20/grady-clay/.

Sources of Figures:

The image of the interview was photographed by WU Weiwen and was amended by HUANG Jishu. Fig 1, 5,9-18 were provided by MSP New York Office; Fig 2 was provided by CHEN Haina, a postgraduate student at GSD,Harvard University; Fig. 3 was provided by MSP Shanghai Office; Fig. 4 was photographed by MO Fei; Fig. 6-8 were originally published byLandscape Architecture Magazinein January 1980. Copy rights and reprinting permissions were obtained from the sources that provided the Figures.

(Editor / LIU Yufei)