采訪：張晉石 同聲翻譯：劉書菡

左：斯蒂格·L·安德森；右：王向榮Left: Stig L. Andersson; Right: WANG Xiangrong

訪談人物：

（丹麥）斯蒂格·L·安德森 / SLA事務(wù)所的創(chuàng)始合伙人和設(shè)計(jì)總監(jiān)

王向榮/北京林業(yè)大學(xué)園林學(xué)院教授、院長(zhǎng)/本刊主編/中國(guó)風(fēng)景園林學(xué)會(huì)副理事長(zhǎng)

Profiles:

Stig L. Andersson is Design Director & Partner of SLA, Professor in Copenhagen University,Architect MAA.

WANG Xiangrong, who is the professor and the dean of the Landscape Architecture School, Beijing Forestry University. He is the chief editor of Landscape Architecture Journal and is also the vice chairman of Chinese Society of Landscape Architecture.

丹麥著名風(fēng)景園林師斯蒂格·L·安德森（Stig L. Andersson）是丹麥SLA事務(wù)所的創(chuàng)始人及創(chuàng)意總監(jiān)，也是丹麥哥本哈根大學(xué)的客座教授，工作涉及風(fēng)景園林和城市設(shè)計(jì)。本刊主編、北京林業(yè)大學(xué)園林學(xué)院院長(zhǎng)王向榮教授一直從事風(fēng)景園林的教學(xué)、科研與規(guī)劃設(shè)計(jì)實(shí)踐工作，作品屢獲國(guó)內(nèi)外大獎(jiǎng)。

本刊特約編輯張晉石老師邀請(qǐng)到以上2位風(fēng)景園林領(lǐng)域的重要人物，借2019年世園會(huì)的契機(jī)，就風(fēng)景園林領(lǐng)域內(nèi)的設(shè)計(jì)哲學(xué)、城市與自然、鄉(xiāng)土性與地域性、藝術(shù)與生態(tài)等問(wèn)題以及對(duì)未來(lái)的風(fēng)景園林師的期許、對(duì)2019北京世園會(huì)的期望進(jìn)行了交流和探討。

LA: 《風(fēng)景園林》

Stig：斯蒂格·L·安德森

WANG：王向榮

LA：我們不妨從這次的創(chuàng)意展園開始。我們知道2位都做過(guò)園博園的大師園或者創(chuàng)意園。王向榮教授做過(guò)廈門園博園的“竹園”、西安園博園的“四盒園”、新加坡花園節(jié)的“心靈的花園”等；安德森教授也做過(guò)西安園博園的“黃土園”，同時(shí)您也在許多城市中設(shè)計(jì)了一些小型花園，如“夏洛特花園”等等。2位是否會(huì)將這些小花園的設(shè)計(jì)方案視為一種設(shè)計(jì)理念的提煉，并試圖在其中傳達(dá)出獨(dú)特的設(shè)計(jì)哲學(xué)？

Stig：我覺(jué)得花園其實(shí)是非常自然的部分，我從中國(guó)以及中國(guó)文化的視角來(lái)看，花園其實(shí)是作為設(shè)計(jì)師或者作為園主本身的自己的內(nèi)在感受的外化和空間的物質(zhì)化。然后，在這樣的情況下，我覺(jué)得應(yīng)該是非常自然的哲學(xué)狀態(tài)（圖1）。

WANG: 展覽花園是比較特殊的園林類型，我做的一些展覽花園主要是想讓進(jìn)入花園的人能感受到花園的神秘，讓人們?cè)诨▓@里沉思和聯(lián)想；同時(shí)讓花園具有無(wú)邊無(wú)境的感覺(jué)，盡管花園很??；另外也要讓人們體會(huì)到中國(guó)園林特有的畫意和詩(shī)意（圖2～5）。

LA：此次世園會(huì)創(chuàng)意展園的設(shè)計(jì)強(qiáng)調(diào)植物的運(yùn)用。此前的一些項(xiàng)目中，比如王向榮教授的江洋畈生態(tài)公園，以及SLA在此前在北京丹麥文化中心舉辦的“松臨城下”展覽等，2位都展現(xiàn)出了對(duì)植物的尊重與運(yùn)用的高超技巧。從2位的實(shí)際經(jīng)驗(yàn)來(lái)說(shuō)，植物的運(yùn)用對(duì)于設(shè)計(jì)方案存在哪些方面影響？在把控植物這種自然設(shè)計(jì)元素方面，有哪些經(jīng)驗(yàn)可以與大家交流？

Stig：SLA之前在北京798做的一個(gè)項(xiàng)目叫做The City of a Billion Pines（松臨城下），當(dāng)時(shí)這個(gè)項(xiàng)目就是希望讓人尤其是城市里生活的人更多能關(guān)注自然環(huán)境、自然生長(zhǎng)和自然條件（圖6）。因?yàn)楝F(xiàn)在在中國(guó)，由于高速的經(jīng)濟(jì)發(fā)展，越來(lái)越多的建筑環(huán)境或越來(lái)越多的城市環(huán)境其實(shí)很多時(shí)候是比較冷漠的，或者說(shuō)超出人應(yīng)該有的生活環(huán)境。所以我們希望把松樹的生長(zhǎng)帶入這樣一種語(yǔ)境，把生長(zhǎng)環(huán)境作為象征去設(shè)計(jì)。松樹是我非常喜歡的一個(gè)樹種，對(duì)于我來(lái)說(shuō)，松樹在中國(guó)作為一種文化象征，代表著堅(jiān)韌不拔這樣的意象，同時(shí)也具有保護(hù)生態(tài)、凈化空氣的作用（圖7）。

WANG: 我完全同意剛才Stig所說(shuō)的，城市的擴(kuò)張使得城市中的自然越來(lái)越少了，為了使得自然和人有很好的平衡，人們應(yīng)該更加關(guān)心植物。作為風(fēng)景園林師，如何應(yīng)用植物是一個(gè)非常重要的問(wèn)題，我想每個(gè)風(fēng)景園林師都會(huì)有應(yīng)用植物的一些準(zhǔn)則，在此基礎(chǔ)上，還有一點(diǎn)特別重要，就是植物創(chuàng)造的生物棲息環(huán)境，城市中不僅僅有人，當(dāng)然人是城市中最重要的生命，但是在城市中還生存著許多其他生物。對(duì)風(fēng)景園林師來(lái)說(shuō)，植物不僅僅要?jiǎng)?chuàng)造優(yōu)美的環(huán)境，為人的健康生活提供各種各樣的服務(wù)支撐，也必須為其他生物提供棲息的場(chǎng)所。這里提到了江洋畈，江洋畈是一片城市中的類荒野，我們的設(shè)計(jì)就是要保護(hù)場(chǎng)地上的植物演替過(guò)程（圖8）。我認(rèn)為現(xiàn)在城市中的植物大部分都是受到人工的控制來(lái)生長(zhǎng)的，這樣的植物無(wú)法為其他生物提供棲息場(chǎng)所，城市中應(yīng)該也必須有相當(dāng)?shù)闹参锶郝淠軌虬凑兆约旱囊?guī)律來(lái)生長(zhǎng)和演替，以便為生活在城市中的其他生物創(chuàng)造生存條件，就是為城市創(chuàng)造生物多樣性的可能。

LA：下面這個(gè)問(wèn)題是單獨(dú)請(qǐng)安德森先生回答的，您在2019北京世園會(huì)中的設(shè)計(jì)作品的設(shè)計(jì)理念是什么？與之前的作品相比，有什么特別之處？

Stig：這個(gè)問(wèn)題的答案可分成3個(gè)部分。第1部分，首先因?yàn)楝F(xiàn)在人與自然的關(guān)系與以前人與自然的關(guān)系不盡相似，歷史里人類和自然的關(guān)系，例如在中國(guó)宋代和文藝復(fù)興以前的時(shí)期的人與自然的關(guān)系里，文化和自然的存在顯著不同但是又相互聯(lián)系，這個(gè)時(shí)代不同于以往的是，因?yàn)槿藢?duì)自然環(huán)境過(guò)多的干預(yù)，其實(shí)你很少能在現(xiàn)在我們所生存的環(huán)境里找到一個(gè)能完全、相互獨(dú)立出來(lái)的文化和自然。現(xiàn)在這種自然和人類文明很難分離的狀態(tài)，我們是把這個(gè)時(shí)代稱為人類世，就屬于像侏羅紀(jì)、白堊紀(jì)一樣，它是一個(gè)新的紀(jì)元，人以前屬于自然的一部分甚至說(shuō)是極小極脆弱的一部分，現(xiàn)在成為了與自然能相互平衡甚至超脫于自然的一個(gè)非常顯著的存在。我們就是希望在這樣的時(shí)代重新去看待人和自然的關(guān)系，也希望從中找到和重新定義這樣的關(guān)系。

第2部分，因?yàn)楝F(xiàn)在就像我剛剛第1部分說(shuō)的，我們現(xiàn)在希望在人類和自然中重新找到這個(gè)定義，然后我們就探索以前的定義是什么，希望從那個(gè)地方開始，看人類和自然最開始的互動(dòng)，園林最開始的一個(gè)起源，其實(shí)很多時(shí)候就是以生產(chǎn)性質(zhì)為主的第二自然。最開始人類就以這種方式來(lái)脫離自然，然后以一種耕作或者說(shuō)采集的形式去形成自己的社會(huì)和文明，或者以此來(lái)作為物質(zhì)基礎(chǔ)去發(fā)展。但是現(xiàn)在我們對(duì)于自然的態(tài)度以及我們的角色已經(jīng)有了很大的變化（圖9），對(duì)此我們就希望重新去定義這個(gè)關(guān)系。第1步就是剛剛說(shuō)的我們?nèi)绾慰创龍@林的起源，第2步我們希望重新把中國(guó)古典園林里面的美感或者說(shuō)美學(xué)觀點(diǎn)提煉出來(lái)到這個(gè)新的關(guān)系里面。

1 哥本哈根大學(xué)Panum研究中心“SUND公園”SUND Nature Park

第3部分就是我們?nèi)L試更多地定義新的自然和新的人類關(guān)系。說(shuō)到我們?cè)趺慈ザx新的自然和新的園林，從我們項(xiàng)目的物質(zhì)性上其實(shí)做了很多的工作，我們用了2種仍然是自然的物質(zhì)，第1個(gè)是松樹，第2個(gè)是竹，它們不僅有自己的物質(zhì)條件，還有中國(guó)文化。一個(gè)代表堅(jiān)韌不拔，一個(gè)代表謙虛，除了文化上的意義以外，我們從另外一個(gè)方面去看新的人類世，例如混凝土的重新利用、可持續(xù)利用，這樣的一些關(guān)鍵詞去看待新的人類世里我們?cè)趺慈ザx在這樣的環(huán)境下，人和自然的關(guān)系中的新的物質(zhì)。我們希望強(qiáng)調(diào)的是，通過(guò)這樣可持續(xù)的過(guò)程，我們以一種流動(dòng)的態(tài)度看待這個(gè)社會(huì)和物質(zhì)世界， 強(qiáng)調(diào)事件以及物質(zhì)存在的過(guò)程性。它們都是在不斷變化的，并不是一個(gè)結(jié)果而已（圖10）。我們有一個(gè)1 200多m2的場(chǎng)地，對(duì)場(chǎng)地用一面石墻、三面竹墻進(jìn)行圍合。然后有一個(gè)曲形的竹橋穿過(guò)整個(gè)場(chǎng)地，對(duì)于我們的設(shè)計(jì)來(lái)說(shuō)，你并不是走入這個(gè)花園，而是越過(guò)這個(gè)花園，在這個(gè)花園里有一個(gè)大的假山石，但是我們并沒(méi)有完全去追求中國(guó)古典園林里的形式，我們其實(shí)是希望用混凝土再利用的方式去展現(xiàn)現(xiàn)在人類社會(huì)機(jī)械化意義的傳達(dá)，當(dāng)然我們希望把混凝土重新利用，在一個(gè)可以3D打印的機(jī)器里，假山其實(shí)并不是傳統(tǒng)意義上的假山，而是去追求一個(gè)機(jī)器的運(yùn)動(dòng)和再利用的質(zhì)感。同時(shí)我們還創(chuàng)造了風(fēng)和霧以及味道這樣一些關(guān)鍵詞去象征中國(guó)古典繪畫里的留白，意境和感知。

2 廈門園博會(huì)“竹園”“Bamboo Garden” in Xiamen Expo

3 西安世界園藝博覽會(huì)“四盒園”“Four Boxes Garden” in Xi’an Expo

LA：在本次世園會(huì)“綠色生活，美麗家園”的主題背景下，王教授，您對(duì)城市與自然的關(guān)系這一話題有何新的思考？

WANG：城市總是在變化和發(fā)展的，尤其是對(duì)中國(guó)這樣的國(guó)家，在目前城市化進(jìn)程非常迅速的時(shí)期，城市的擴(kuò)張非常迅速，城市和自然的關(guān)系也一直在改變，但是無(wú)論怎樣變化，讓一個(gè)城市具有良好的宜居環(huán)境，這個(gè)城市內(nèi)外的自然系統(tǒng)必須是完整和連貫的，就像中國(guó)歷史上的許多城市一樣，不管這個(gè)城市是大是小，人口是多是少，城市的地理位置是南是北，海拔是高還是低，城市的內(nèi)部和外部必須都具有一個(gè)完整連貫的自然系統(tǒng)。

LA：我們?cè)赟LA的許多項(xiàng)目中，比如Anchor Park in Malm?中，感受到了多樣的設(shè)計(jì)手法、多種元素的巧妙運(yùn)用帶來(lái)的藝術(shù)沖擊力，而在王向榮教授的江洋畈生態(tài)公園設(shè)計(jì)中，感受到的是一種更加平和、自然的氛圍。對(duì)于風(fēng)景園林中的藝術(shù)和生態(tài)、人工美和自然美之間的關(guān)系，2位是如何理解和平衡的呢？

Stig：從“二戰(zhàn)”之后，因?yàn)閼?zhàn)爭(zhēng)的原因，歐洲國(guó)家開始重新建立自己的社會(huì)和城市，在這個(gè)過(guò)程中其實(shí)它們關(guān)注的是如何以非?？焖僖约袄硇曰姆绞桨堰@個(gè)國(guó)家重新建立起來(lái)，效率是他們關(guān)注的重點(diǎn)。對(duì)于我來(lái)說(shuō)，這些歐洲國(guó)家在這樣一個(gè)過(guò)程中失去了對(duì)自然美的感受，于是在之后的城市建設(shè)過(guò)程和設(shè)計(jì)中，我們也希望可以逐漸把這樣一個(gè)感受慢慢找回來(lái)。而且現(xiàn)在更多的人越來(lái)越多地能感受到效率帶來(lái)的城市空間與人之間的疏離感。越來(lái)越多的人希望自然環(huán)境是在城市之中（圖11）。

WANG：我理解的景觀landscape有多重的含義和綜合的意義。景觀具有歷史、社會(huì)、文化、生態(tài)、藝術(shù)等多方面的價(jià)值。我們追求的是景觀的各種屬性的平衡，不會(huì)為了功能而忽視場(chǎng)地的歷史，為了生態(tài)而忽視藝術(shù)，為了自然而忽視人的需要。我們希望自己的設(shè)計(jì)與今天的生活相關(guān)，具有藝術(shù)的品質(zhì)，汲取了歷史的精神、符合生態(tài)的原則、反映了社會(huì)的需要和技術(shù)的發(fā)展。

LA：我們都知道，2位十分關(guān)注風(fēng)景園林的鄉(xiāng)土性或地域性，并且都接觸過(guò)一些國(guó)際項(xiàng)目。在這些國(guó)際項(xiàng)目中，2位在理解和闡釋陌生文化語(yǔ)境下的景觀地域性時(shí)，是否遇到過(guò)困難？又是如何應(yīng)對(duì)的呢？尤其是對(duì)于安德森教授，您在中國(guó)的設(shè)計(jì)項(xiàng)目過(guò)程中是如何處理景觀的地域性問(wèn)題的？

Stig：我們公司的設(shè)計(jì)和文化有獨(dú)特鮮明的特質(zhì)，但是這并不代表我們公司的地域性成為了一種局限。我們公司主要平時(shí)交流語(yǔ)言是英語(yǔ)，我們的項(xiàng)目遍布全球，而且我們?cè)趪?guó)際上的聲譽(yù)和項(xiàng)目也在不斷擴(kuò)張，比如中東、法國(guó)以及一些北歐地區(qū)的項(xiàng)目。我們?cè)谂c其他文化交流的過(guò)程中，面對(duì)著不同文化、不同行業(yè)的人，工作的時(shí)候當(dāng)然會(huì)有一些挑戰(zhàn)，但是我們相互之間理解而且相互之間去試圖理解文化差異和工作方式，去包容和理解差異，其實(shí)不僅是作為一個(gè)景觀設(shè)計(jì)師，也是作為一個(gè)人對(duì)自己更高的要求。

WANG：我覺(jué)得對(duì)于一個(gè)訓(xùn)練有素的設(shè)計(jì)師來(lái)說(shuō)這并不是問(wèn)題。在全球化的今天，大家的交流非常密切，互相了解的渠道和方式也非常多。設(shè)計(jì)師不可能只做當(dāng)?shù)氐捻?xiàng)目，設(shè)計(jì)師的工作方法就是用眼睛去觀察世界，用心去體驗(yàn)世界，再通過(guò)各種各樣的手段來(lái)了解和研究這個(gè)世界，還可以與當(dāng)?shù)氐娜诉M(jìn)行合作。對(duì)我來(lái)說(shuō)，并沒(méi)有因?yàn)椴煌攸c(diǎn)文化的差異而帶來(lái)設(shè)計(jì)的困惑和難題。

LA：據(jù)我所知，丹麥?zhǔn)鞘澜缟闲腋Ｖ笖?shù)最高的國(guó)家之一。相比起丹麥，中國(guó)的幸福指數(shù)就沒(méi)有那么高。幸福指數(shù)的評(píng)判指標(biāo)包括GDP、國(guó)民健康狀況、預(yù)期壽命、社會(huì)支持程度等方面。在幸福指數(shù)差異極大的2個(gè)國(guó)家和社會(huì)背景中，風(fēng)景園林的使命和關(guān)注點(diǎn)有何異同？

Stig：確實(shí)有的時(shí)候在講到幸福指數(shù)時(shí)，可能丹麥數(shù)值上挺高的，但我認(rèn)為，快樂(lè)這種東西是挺難量化，因?yàn)槟闫o它一個(gè)數(shù)字的話，意味著它需要是一個(gè)非常理性而且可控制的。除了可以量化的部分以外，其實(shí)還有一部分就是你作為居民、市民的個(gè)人感受，我覺(jué)得要去比較這個(gè)感受的時(shí)候，說(shuō)不定亞洲國(guó)家像是中國(guó)甚至?xí)葰W洲國(guó)家或者丹麥這樣的國(guó)家要高。

WANG：正像Stig說(shuō)的，百姓的幸福指數(shù)確確實(shí)實(shí)很難量化。對(duì)風(fēng)景園林師來(lái)說(shuō)，我個(gè)人感到在中國(guó)可能幸福指數(shù)更高，為什么呢，因?yàn)樵谥袊?guó)你有更多的機(jī)會(huì)、更多的可能做更廣泛的研究，完成更綜合更復(fù)雜的實(shí)踐。因?yàn)?個(gè)國(guó)家的發(fā)展階段是不一樣的，丹麥的城市化率已經(jīng)達(dá)到了百分之九十幾，中國(guó)的城市化率還不到60%。未來(lái)一段時(shí)間，中國(guó)的城市化率每年還要增加1個(gè)百分點(diǎn)以上，這意味每年都有1 000多萬(wàn)的人從農(nóng)村進(jìn)入城市，中國(guó)還有巨大的建設(shè)量，這為風(fēng)景園林師提供了無(wú)限的機(jī)會(huì)。另外過(guò)去30年中國(guó)在迅速發(fā)展的同時(shí)，對(duì)環(huán)境也有極大的破壞，風(fēng)景園林師有無(wú)限的機(jī)會(huì)去修復(fù)這些環(huán)境。在中國(guó)，風(fēng)景園林師具有更光明的前景，所以比較兩國(guó)的風(fēng)景園林師，中國(guó)的風(fēng)景園林師的幸福感應(yīng)該更高，因?yàn)樗麄冇懈嗟臋C(jī)會(huì)。

4 新加坡花園節(jié)“心靈的花園”“Garden of Hearts” in the Singapore Garden Festival

LA：王向榮教授在北林已經(jīng)任教31年，安德森教授也是丹麥哥本哈根大學(xué)的教授，2位作為風(fēng)景園林專業(yè)的教授，你們最希望傳授給同學(xué)們的是什么？對(duì)于這些未來(lái)的風(fēng)景園林師們有怎樣的期許？

Stig：我認(rèn)為就像之前說(shuō)的，當(dāng)新的環(huán)境可能需要去重新定義新的自然關(guān)系的時(shí)候，其實(shí)就是未來(lái)的景觀設(shè)計(jì)師需要去學(xué)會(huì)應(yīng)對(duì)這樣的事情。現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)不是一個(gè)景觀設(shè)計(jì)師能獨(dú)當(dāng)一面的時(shí)候了，就像SLA一樣，我覺(jué)得未來(lái)的風(fēng)景設(shè)計(jì)師或者說(shuō)現(xiàn)在開始其實(shí)就應(yīng)該學(xué)著要去跟更多不同的專業(yè)合作，比如說(shuō)我們公司有人類學(xué)家、 生態(tài)學(xué)家、土壤學(xué)和城市方面的專家，我們所面臨的未來(lái)， 需要我們?nèi)W(xué)會(huì)合作。更重要的是，在這樣合作之中你要知道你自己能貢獻(xiàn)一些什么樣的視角，或者說(shuō)力量和能力。同時(shí)我認(rèn)為，景觀設(shè)計(jì)師其實(shí)是能在這樣的項(xiàng)目以及團(tuán)隊(duì)里起到管理和協(xié)調(diào)的作用，引導(dǎo)以及架構(gòu)整個(gè)設(shè)計(jì)， 甚至需要我們架構(gòu)整個(gè)結(jié)構(gòu)、整個(gè)項(xiàng)目方向的一個(gè)工作職責(zé)。所以現(xiàn)在的學(xué)生也需要更多地去注意這樣一些工作性質(zhì)的變化，這也是他們需要學(xué)習(xí)的（圖12）。

5 法國(guó)肖蒙花園節(jié)“天地之間”花園“Between Sky and Earth” in the International Garden Festival at Chaumont sur-Loire

WANG：應(yīng)該讓學(xué)生知道他未來(lái)的工作是非常重要、非常有意義的。他們的工作將涉及人類的整個(gè)生存系統(tǒng)和生活環(huán)境。第二也要告訴學(xué)生，只有付出艱辛努力，才有可能取得很好的成績(jī)。第三是要全面發(fā)展，風(fēng)景園林研究和實(shí)踐的范圍是非常廣泛的，只有更全面的發(fā)展，才有可能在未來(lái)做出更有價(jià)值的工作。

LA：最后，請(qǐng)2位談一談對(duì)于2019北京世園會(huì)的期望或寄語(yǔ)？

Stig：其實(shí)這一次我們的目的是希望在新自然關(guān)系下展現(xiàn)出更多的可能性，以及想要挖掘出新的自然關(guān)系下的美，我們不希望人作為社會(huì)的一部分僅僅是被我們所造的環(huán)境所影響，也希望我們能成為其中非常融洽且和諧共處的一部分，我們也能體驗(yàn)到美的存在（圖13）。

WANG：我的希望有3個(gè)，第一是這個(gè)世園會(huì)任何的展覽都與百姓的生活密切相關(guān)，成為百姓生活的一部分，而不是僅僅是一個(gè)展覽。第二就是更多地展示我們這個(gè)行業(yè)的新的思想、新的方法、新的工藝、新材料、新技術(shù)和新的可能，而不是像以前很多的園林博覽會(huì)那樣多是重復(fù)以往的成就和經(jīng)驗(yàn)。第三希望這個(gè)展覽是把一個(gè)原本一般的場(chǎng)地環(huán)境變成一個(gè)更美好的環(huán)境，而不是把一個(gè)美的環(huán)境變成平庸。

致謝：感謝張博雅前期準(zhǔn)備采訪內(nèi)容。

注釋：

圖片1、6、7、9～13由SLA提供；圖片2～5、8由北京多義景觀規(guī)劃設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所提供。

錄音整理：鐘麗君 許志誠(chéng)

翻譯：萬(wàn)靜柯

校對(duì)：王晞月

（編輯/張?chǎng)┚辏?/p>

The famous Danish landscape designer Stig L. Andersson is the founder and Creative Director of SLA, and he is also the visiting professor at the University of Copenhagen in Denmark. His projects include landscape architecture and city design. Professor WANG Xiangrong, the dean of the School of Landscape Architecture at Beijing Forestry University and chief editor of this Journal, has been working on teaching, researching and planning design and practice in landscape architecture, and his works have won many important awards home and abroad.

Professor ZHANG Jinshi, the contributing editor of this Journal, invited these two celebrities abovementioned. With the chance of Beijing Expo 2019,they have deep conversation in terms of these topics and issues including design philosophy, city and nature,nationality and locality and art and ecology as well as expectations of future expectations.

LA: Let’s start from the creative garden. As we know that both of you have designed Master Garden or Creative Garden in the Horticultural Expos. Professor WANG has designed the“Bamboo Garden” in Xiamen Expo, “Four Boxes Garden” in Xi’an Expo, “Garden of Hearts” in the Singapore Garden Festival, etc. As for Professor Anderson, you have designed the “Mud Garden”in Xi’an Expo, and also have designed several small gardens in different cities, such as the Charlotte Garden. Do you both regard (the design schemes of) these small gardens as a kind of extraction of design concept trying to convey unique design philosophy?

Stig: I think that re-guiding the garden is so interesting how you can express your feelings. So,basically what I learn from China, Chinese culture is the garden expression. It is an extension of what is inside you into a physical expression as we think of design.So this is what interesting me re-guiding more garden protect. It is relationship between how do you feel, and the meeting of the new nature is a science nature (Fig. 1).

WANG: The exhibition garden is very (a special type of gardens) special, and the purpose of my design is mainly to make people who enter my garden (can) feel mystery so that they can ponder and imagine here, and meanwhile in this way it can create a feeling of boundlessness although (in spite of) it is very small. In addition, people can enjoy the unique painting and poetic feeling of classical Chinese garden (Fig. 2-5).

LA: The use of plants is emphasized in the design of Creative Garden in the coming Beijing Expo 2019. In previous projects, such as Jiangyangfan Eco-Park (designed) by Professor WANG and the exhibition of “The City of a Billion Pines” designed by SLA and held at Danish Cultural Center, Beijing, both of you showed the respect for plants and the outstanding skills of planting design.According to your practical experience, what kind of effects does the use of plants may have on the design scheme. Can you share some experience with us from the aspect of handling plants, this kind of natural design element?

6 北京798 “松臨城下”The City of a Billion Pines

Stig: When I took the exhibition in 798 Art District last year, The City of a Billion Pines, the idea was to focus on the aim that was to make people in cities focus on the important of having growing environment (Fig. 6), especially in China, but all over the world, the cities are growing very fast. It means that it will be more and more buildings environment and less less nature. So I think we have to explain why it’s important to have growing environment in order to create a better life condition for people.And I think pine tree especially in China, because of the culture reason, is a very strong tree to use it the sense because it both awakes emotional feelings what I called it take the sense of nature, but also has utility value that it can clean the air, so we can have less smoke in the city (Fig. 7).

WANG: I completely agree with what Stig said just now, the expansion of urban has made the natural landscape become less and less, so people should care more about plants in order to well balance the nature and human. As a landscape architect, how to utilize plants is a very important issue and I think every landscape architect has their principles. On this basis,it is of great importance that plants can create habitat environment for all creatures. We know people live in cities and they are the most important ones, but there are many other living things existing here. For landscape architects, plants not only create beautiful environment providing various services for human’s healthy life, but also provide habitats for other creatures. Here it refers to the Jiangyangfan Eco-Park which is a wild field in the city. And our design is to protect the successional procession of plants in this place (Fig. 8). I think most plants in cities are now under human’s control and such plants couldn’t provide habitats for other creatures. Cities should and must leave some space for vegetation communities to grow and succeed according to their own laws so as to create living conditions for other living things, which is to create the possibility of biodiversity for cities.

LA: The following question is specifically for Professor Anderson. What is the design concept of your project in the coming Beijing Expo 2019? And what is the difference between it and your previous projeces?

Stig: I think it is an interesting fact that the nature today the relationship between man and nature today is not as same as in old time, like in Song Dynasty and for western country like Renaissance or before it. Today we are facing a new situation. Well, nature is not something with outside.Today, nature and culture is not separated anymore.It is same because our impacts on nature have been very strong, so the nature we today face is thought of a new nature that we are cooperating of, the quality, at the Anthropocene that means we have to rethink our relationship between man and nature.

So, if you are looking at the traditional culture which is the first step the man cultivates the earth, it was done to use the resources from having food, making fire, so you can prepare food and have long live together, so people are gathering around the fire. For that stage, this is thirty thousand years ago. After the ice time,man began to rejoin himself from nature (Fig. 9).So, that was first step, in our act of its feeling so to say the geological system of the earth. Next step was to develope its traditional Chinese garden, well beauty will come into it.

And third step, it was I suppose it’s a new Chinese garden. All the materials in the garden the way we treated, it’s both arti ficial and natural growing so it’s to say, so we are interfering all the nature processes in the way we express the garden. All nature material used is bamboo and pine. Pine as free in the way growing tree,which is very strong, this is also the meaning in Chinese culture, and bamboo which is the modesty. The other material like concrete, scaffolding which is surrounding the garden as a wall is material that we borrow from already sixteen billion constructions. So the whole garden is composed of material that after exhibition can be used. This is a process where the garden is a sort of circular economy, as nothing would stand forever,everything is in the process, and now we are in the fact that is a man-made cooperation of a new natural expression (Fig. 10). We have a site that is one thousand three hundred square meter, and we are making it closer like a garden, and we have bridge that is an urge so you walk over. So you are not walking into the garden, you are walking in the out of the garden. So we have a cliff like a traditional garden, but this cliff is made of reused concrete. That concrete is from demolished buildings,putting into a machine that build up a sort of a cliff but it is an arti ficial one, and also the shape is not like the cliff, but it is resided of the power machine works. And there are some nests in this cliff where the pine tree can rest. On the other side, we are creating wind by having a fan, and water with reused rain water. So you walking to mist, so what is the emptiness in the traditional Chinese painting? I change to an atmosphere of the same emptiness but created by modern technology.

LA: With the theme of “Live Green, Live Better” in this Beijing Expo 2019, Professor WANG what’s your new idea on the topic of the relationship between city and nature?

WANG: Cities are always changing and developing, especially for countries like China. In the current period of fast urbanization, cities have expanded rapidly and the relation between city and nature has been changing all the time. However, no matter how it changes, only a complete and coherent natural system inside and outside, can the city have good livable environment. Just like the cities in Chinese history, regardless of the scale, population,the geographical locations and altitudes, they must have a complete and coherent natural system.

LA: From many of SLA’s projects, such as Anchor Park in Malm?, we can feel the artistic impact by various design techniques and ingenious use of various elements. But in the design of Jiangyangfan Eco-Park by Professor WANG Xiangrong, we can feel a more peaceful and natural atmosphere. How do you both understand and balance the relationship between art and ecology, artificial beauty and natural beauty in landscape architecture?

7 南宋馬麟 《靜聽(tīng)松風(fēng)》Listening to the Wind Under a Pine Tree, MA Lin, South Song Dynasty

8 杭州江洋畈生態(tài)公園Jiangyangfan Eco-Park, Hangzhou

Stig: I think we are through modernity which developed very fast after the second world war. We forgot the meaning of what beauty is. So we were thinking most countries all over the world must think of the rationality in surviving so to say and build up a new society. So all countries that go into a modernization are mainly thinking of the rational out put of that and that have the fate that they are appreciations of the beauty and the man-solationship to match natural process and phenomenon in nature is under priority.So it is becoming less important, and I think that we can use the thinking in other philosophy and landscape architecture to bring into use. The importance of its deepest sense of nature which is actually those tree together and appreciated the beauty that we are embraced by when we meet natural phenomenon. And more and more people all over the world are aware of that according to the very fast development (Fig. 11).

9 2019北京世園會(huì)“Yuán”概念分析圖‘Yuán’ Conceptual Diagram, Beijing Expo 2019

10 2019北京世園會(huì)“Yuán”斯蒂格·L·安德森手稿‘Yuán’ sketches of Stig L. Andersson, Beijing Expo 2019

11 SEB銀行“城市山丘”The City Dune - SEB Bank

WANG: The landscape, in my opinion, has multiple meanings and comprehensive significance.It has various values in many aspects such as history,social, culture, ecology and art. What we pursue is the balance in all attributes of landscape, and we will not neglect history of cities for the sake of their functions,neglect its artistic value for ecology and neglect human’s needs for the nature. We hope that our design can have close relationship with our current life, possessing the artistic quality, drawing on the spirit of history,conforming to the ecological principles and re flecting the social demand and technological development.

LA: As we all know that both of you are very concerned about the vernacular character or regional feature of landscape architecture,and also have engaged in some international projects. In these projects, have you been in troubles in expressing landscape territoriality with unfamiliar cultural context? Especially for professor Anderson, how do you deal with the landscape territoriality in your design projects in China?

Stig: I don’t think that the way I or my office work is limited to original thinking. We are working all over the world, so we meet many different countries.In the office we are many different countries. The main language is English, even though our of fice is in Copenhagen. We also have offices in Oslo Norway.Well, it’s different country. We are working in the Middle East, we are working in China, we are working in many places, in French. So we are meeting many countries, many different countries. Of course that causes some challenges and these challenges can be solved in a common way. So it’s about the conversation.It’s about the dialog understanding the respects for the country we meet and when you do that, you also have respected yourself from the people you work together.And I think that raised quality both of the landscape architecture but also the human beings.

WANG: I think it is not a problem for a welltrained designer. Along with the globalization,their exchange has become closer and they have multiple channels to understand each other. So it is impossible for designers to only carry out local projects. Their working methods are to observe the world with eyes, experience it with heart,understand and study it through various means, and cooperate with local people. And for me, cultural differences in different places don’t bring me the designing confusion and dif ficulties.

LA: As I know, Denmark is one of the countries with the highest happiness index in the world. Compared to Denmark, China’s happiness index is not that high. The judgment of happiness index includes GDP, national health status, life expectancy, social support and so on. What are the similarities and differences in the mission and focus of landscape architecture between the two countries with great differences in happiness index and social contexts?

Stig: I know that Denmark usually called it having the highest index happiness, but the interesting is how is that measured? Because it’s related to something you can measure, which means you could put numbers on it. But I think landscape architecture is about the feelings, is how you feel, you can not put numbers on how you feel. So it’s half of the solution I think that only looking happiness that something you can measure, you also need the other half which is how do you feel, and I think if you look at both those two paradises, as understanding what happiness is. Then maybe China have bene fited of what do you feel. The relationship between man and nature is probably much its out of eyeexperiences, much stronger in the Asian countries than its in Denmark and western countries. So if we do happiness index on how do we feel, maybe it will down fade and then Asian country will win.

12 SLA哥本哈根辦公室一角SLA Copenhagen Office

13 威尼斯建筑雙年展“Empowerment of Aesthetics”Venice Architecture Biennale 2014: Empowerment of Aesthetics

WANG: As Stig said, people’s happiness index is indeed difficult to quantify. For landscape architects,I personally feel that there may be a higher index in China, because here you have more opportunities and possibilities to do more extensive researches and complete more comprehensive and complex practices.The development stages of the two countries are different, and the urbanization in Danmark has achieved more than 90% while that in China has been less than 60%. For some time to come, the urbanization in China will increase more than one percentage point each year,which means more than ten million people will enter cities from rural areas every year. The huge amount of construction in China provides opportunities for landscape architects. In addition, in the past 30 years,China has developed rapidly and the environment has been destroyed greatly, thus landscape architects have in finite opportunities to restore it. In China, landscape architects have a bright future, so comparing architects in the two countries, those in China should be happier for they have more opportunities.

LA: Professor WANG has been teaching in BFU for 31 years, and Mr. Anderson is a professor in the University of Copenhagen. What do you want to impart to your students mostly?What expectations do you have for those future landscape architects?

Stig: Since we are facing the situation where nature has changed to a new nature that we are cooperating of. We have such a big impact on our environment today. It’s important to have many cooperators to work together, like biologists, gardeners,landscape artists, philosophers, engineers, so lots of different cooperators and professions have to work in team, to solve, to form the process of a new landscape architecture. So we need a new approach to landscape architecture, and I think the most important part of that is to understanding what it’s your contributions,compared to other cooperators, and then being able to managing this kind of team work. And I think the landscape artists have an important road. So it’s what I am teaching to my students (Fig. 12).

WANG: Firstly, it is very important and meaningful to let students know more about their future job which will concern human’s whole survival system and living environment. Secondly, we should tell them only by hard working can they make good results. Thirdly, they should develop in an all-round way. The researches and practices about landscape architecture are very extensive, so only with all-round development can they present more valuable work.

LA: Finally, could you please talk about your expectations or wishes about the Beijing Expo 2019?

Stig: I think the most important part is to give the visitors possibility to see the beauty in the new nature,that is what I call the deepest sense of nature. This is when you really feel something deep inside you. When you sense your environment, and it gives you a deep feeling that you feel pleasant. And you do that to get joy expression which we are cooperating of and not just a philosophy that is think insist our part. But today, it’s fact that we are also the one treated condition for heavy rain or storms and see not only a threaten but also to be able to see the beauty. So my aim of this project is to give people the opportunity to see that is all the beauty in the new situation and that always a threat (Fig. 13).

WANG: I have three hopes. Firstly, I hope that every exhibition of the Beijing Expo 2019 should have a close relation with people’s life, even become a part of people’ life, instead of a simple exhibition. Secondly, I hope it can show more new ideas, methods, techniques, materials, technologies and possibilities of our industry, instead of repeating the past achievements and experience in the previous horticultural expos. Thirdly, I hope this expo can change the ordinary site into a beautiful environment,instead of changing beauty into mediocrity.

Acknowledgement:Thank ZHANG Boya for her contribution to this interview during early preparation period.

Notes:

Fig. 1，6，7，9～13 are provided by SLA, Fig. 2-5，8 are provided by Atelier DYJG.