孫凌波/S

探訪倫佐·皮亞諾江南布衣杭州總部

孫凌波/S

1 江南布衣杭州總部鳥(niǎo)瞰效果圖（圖片來(lái)源：GOA大象設(shè)計(jì)）

江南布衣杭州總部1)是倫佐·皮亞諾在中國(guó)承接的首個(gè)建筑項(xiàng)目。3月26日，在倫佐·皮亞諾赴項(xiàng)目施工現(xiàn)場(chǎng)會(huì)議前及現(xiàn)場(chǎng)工作期間，本刊對(duì)倫佐·皮亞諾及其合伙人馬克·卡羅爾（Mark Carroll），以及項(xiàng)目業(yè)主杭州江南布衣服飾有限公司總裁李琳、項(xiàng)目中方合作建筑事務(wù)所GOA大象設(shè)計(jì)總經(jīng)理陸?zhàn)┻M(jìn)行了簡(jiǎn)短的采訪。

WA：您曾說(shuō)過(guò)建筑是關(guān)于探索的。您的建筑通常并不帶有強(qiáng)烈的個(gè)人風(fēng)格，而是會(huì)在不同的場(chǎng)地或背景中尋找靈感。杭州是一個(gè)歷史悠久的中國(guó)城市，擁有幽美的自然景觀，同時(shí)和許多其他中國(guó)城市一樣有很多新的建設(shè)。這是您的第一個(gè)中國(guó)項(xiàng)目，您也說(shuō)過(guò)您從不會(huì)沒(méi)看過(guò)地段就接受項(xiàng)目委托。當(dāng)您來(lái)到這個(gè)城市和項(xiàng)目基地時(shí)得到了哪些設(shè)計(jì)上的靈感？這個(gè)項(xiàng)目的什么地方吸引您接受了這次委托？

倫佐·皮亞諾：我們的事務(wù)所是合伙人的形式，我們已經(jīng)合作了二三十年。這個(gè)項(xiàng)目從業(yè)主來(lái)到我們那里、接著馬克和另一些同事來(lái)到杭州，然后我過(guò)來(lái)，這樣第一階段大概有6個(gè)月的時(shí)間。在這段時(shí)間我們有很多的交流和討論，收集各種信息，也做了些概念方案。

當(dāng)你第一次來(lái)到杭州的時(shí)候，這個(gè)城市帶給你的靈感可能來(lái)自于它的自然和水景。這里的自然很美。就像從我們現(xiàn)在坐的地方往窗外看，看那面墻上的樹(shù)影，你可以體會(huì)到建筑與自然的和諧互動(dòng)。我們?cè)谶@里看到這種感覺(jué)，并且愛(ài)上了它。10年前，我們?cè)谂f金山的加州科學(xué)館中曾做過(guò)綠色屋頂，所以我們知道這可以實(shí)現(xiàn)，這不僅是為了裝飾，而是有很多實(shí)際的功能。于是在這里，我們開(kāi)始設(shè)想在屋頂上種植茶樹(shù)，在保護(hù)屋頂?shù)耐瑫r(shí)，體現(xiàn)這種建筑與自然互動(dòng)的感覺(jué)，然后就開(kāi)始咨詢各種顧問(wèn)并努力把它實(shí)現(xiàn)。

通常就是這樣，你的靈感來(lái)自于某些地方，然后你把它分享給整個(gè)團(tuán)隊(duì)。這就像打乒乓球一樣，不過(guò)不是兩個(gè)人打，而是30個(gè)人。一個(gè)設(shè)計(jì)的靈感來(lái)源從來(lái)都不會(huì)只有一個(gè)，而是來(lái)自很多地方。提到中國(guó)，你常常想到的可能是光與影、傳統(tǒng)與肌理、輕盈的感覺(jué)。所以我們必須從場(chǎng)所和傳統(tǒng)中學(xué)習(xí)。但同時(shí)，我們是當(dāng)代建筑師，要接受生活在這個(gè)時(shí)代的種種挑戰(zhàn)，因此，我們要用現(xiàn)在的方式來(lái)建造，而不是假裝你還是屬于過(guò)去的某個(gè)時(shí)代。你是屬于未來(lái)的。

馬克·卡羅爾：在屋頂種植茶樹(shù)就是一個(gè)很好的關(guān)于探索的例子。我們最初的設(shè)想可能出于直覺(jué)，受到附近種植茶樹(shù)的小山啟發(fā)。通過(guò)與顧問(wèn)和業(yè)主的交流，我們發(fā)現(xiàn)這是可以實(shí)現(xiàn)的。而且開(kāi)始你可能覺(jué)得這樣種不出很好的茶，但研究后我們知道這不僅可以為建筑遮陰，而且可以種出能夠供飲用的茶。

倫佐·皮亞諾：這只是舉出項(xiàng)目中的一個(gè)元素作為例子，還有很多其他的元素。你可能只是從一個(gè)很小的想法開(kāi)始，然后有人說(shuō)“不可能”，有人說(shuō)“為什么不”。一個(gè)好的團(tuán)隊(duì)里應(yīng)該沒(méi)有人說(shuō)“不可能”，所有人都說(shuō)“讓我們?cè)囋嚒?。這就是我想說(shuō)的，我們有非常好的團(tuán)隊(duì)。不僅是指我們自己，還有我們的合作方GOA、業(yè)主，以及建造方，還有來(lái)自威尼斯的混凝土施工方來(lái)幫助我們做清水混凝土。很多時(shí)候人們不喜歡學(xué)習(xí)，他們總是說(shuō)“我知道怎么干”。但我們需要人們持有積極的態(tài)度，當(dāng)所有人都說(shuō)“讓我們?cè)囋嚒?，這就表達(dá)了一種樂(lè)觀的精神，想要做事情的態(tài)度。這也是整個(gè)工作非常重要的一個(gè)元素。

WA：相比于其他一些建筑師，您更注重建造和細(xì)節(jié)。但中國(guó)建筑普遍的建造品質(zhì)比歐美要差一些。您認(rèn)為您可以確保這個(gè)項(xiàng)目的建造品質(zhì)嗎？如果可以，將通過(guò)什么方式來(lái)實(shí)現(xiàn)？

倫佐·皮亞諾：我們關(guān)注細(xì)節(jié)是因?yàn)檫@是我們職責(zé)的一部分。我們也會(huì)關(guān)注光、地段、社會(huì)等方面，你要知道如何創(chuàng)造一個(gè)讓人們喜歡的場(chǎng)所。一個(gè)建筑師必須要把很多事情做好，這其中也包括要做一個(gè)好的建造者。不是好的建造者的建筑師，就像不彈琴的鋼琴家，或者不畫(huà)畫(huà)的畫(huà)家。這是你的本職工作，你必須要對(duì)細(xì)節(jié)感興趣。我們要在上海開(kāi)幕的展覽名為“漸漸件件”（piece by piece），我們的工作就是這樣一件件做出來(lái)的。

但是，建筑師只做好的細(xì)節(jié)是不夠的。你必須是為了一個(gè)好的項(xiàng)目，出于某種好的原因，才做出好的細(xì)節(jié)。你要把很多事情集合到一起。好的細(xì)節(jié)是和美相關(guān)的，是和建筑的社會(huì)價(jià)值相關(guān)的。它從不會(huì)只關(guān)于它自己，或只為了顯示你的高明。就像你寫(xiě)作一樣，不是只有華麗的詞藻就夠了，它必須意味著什么，否則將沒(méi)有意義。細(xì)節(jié)是整個(gè)故事的一部分。我認(rèn)識(shí)的朋友中有一些很好的指揮家，在音樂(lè)會(huì)的預(yù)演中，他們能馬上發(fā)現(xiàn)和指出哪個(gè)聲部或哪個(gè)演奏者的哪個(gè)地方出了問(wèn)題。這就是細(xì)節(jié)，但又不只是細(xì)節(jié)，因?yàn)橐魳?lè)是一個(gè)整體。所以細(xì)節(jié)關(guān)乎整體，一個(gè)好的建筑就是由多個(gè)部件組合在一起，這就是我們關(guān)注細(xì)節(jié)的原因。

對(duì)于這個(gè)項(xiàng)目是否能做到好的品質(zhì)，我認(rèn)為是可以的。事情正在變得越來(lái)越好，而且我覺(jué)得這個(gè)國(guó)家擁有這樣的精力和欲望去學(xué)習(xí)。我們?cè)谶@里和很多人合作，有時(shí)他們不知道如何去做，但他們會(huì)去學(xué)習(xí)，而這就是促進(jìn)整體狀況發(fā)生改變的方式。我們事務(wù)所也是這樣進(jìn)步的，最初也不是現(xiàn)在這個(gè)樣子，但是我們一直在學(xué)習(xí)。要學(xué)習(xí)，你就必須保持謙虛的態(tài)度，必須不斷地吸收。

馬克·卡羅爾：我想我們開(kāi)始了一個(gè)很好的程序。因?yàn)閷?shí)際上我們不可能一直跟進(jìn)建造過(guò)程，所以我們會(huì)要求做樣板。他們會(huì)制作建筑各個(gè)部分的部件的樣板給我們看。一個(gè)部件的樣板可能會(huì)做兩三次，直到做好它。然后樣板就成了標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，接下來(lái)只要重復(fù)制作就可以了。我們希望建筑的每個(gè)部件都被很好地制作，然后被多次重復(fù)。就像展覽題目“漸漸件件”（piece by piece）：我們?cè)O(shè)計(jì)部件，然后不斷重復(fù)。比如這個(gè)項(xiàng)目中立面上的鋁百葉將會(huì)重復(fù)4000多次，綠色立面上種植植物的部件將有2000多個(gè)，都會(huì)通過(guò)這種方式來(lái)制作。因?yàn)槲覀兿朐谶@里用清水混凝土，這對(duì)建造品質(zhì)要求很高，很困難。我們的業(yè)主非常好，他們接受了邀請(qǐng)意大利建造方來(lái)施工的想法。這個(gè)意大利的清水混凝土建造方曾為安藤忠雄在意大利的項(xiàng)目工作，也曾和我們?cè)诿绹?guó)金貝爾博物館項(xiàng)目中合作。他們現(xiàn)在正在為杭州這個(gè)項(xiàng)目工作。

WA： 您多次提到“學(xué)習(xí)”，我們的雜志是基于清華大學(xué)的，我也想問(wèn)您一個(gè)關(guān)于建筑教育的問(wèn)題。您出生于一個(gè)建造者之家。您曾說(shuō)過(guò)這使您遠(yuǎn)離學(xué)術(shù)界，遠(yuǎn)離那種對(duì)年輕學(xué)生很危險(xiǎn)的創(chuàng)造形式的輕易的快感。據(jù)我所知，也曾有清華大學(xué)的學(xué)生到您的事務(wù)所實(shí)習(xí)。您如何看待當(dāng)今的建筑教育？您認(rèn)為什么是培養(yǎng)青年建筑師最為合適的方式？

倫佐·皮亞諾：我可能很難去談?wù)搶?duì)于當(dāng)今建筑教育的看法，但我知道我們正在做什么。我們事務(wù)所創(chuàng)立了一小筆基金，這完全由我們自己出資，不是借用他人投資。大概有十七八個(gè)來(lái)自世界各地的年輕人依靠這筆錢(qián)來(lái)到我們事務(wù)所，他們來(lái)自中國(guó)、美國(guó)、非洲、南美等很多地方。他們會(huì)在巴黎或熱那亞的辦公室和我們一起待6個(gè)月。在意大利語(yǔ)中有個(gè)詞叫“bottega”，意思就是“從實(shí)踐中學(xué)習(xí)”，這是沿用文藝復(fù)興時(shí)代學(xué)習(xí)雕塑或繪畫(huà)的詞匯。因?yàn)橛行┦虑槭且獜哪闳諒?fù)一日的經(jīng)歷中學(xué)習(xí)的。我們不愿意每天坐下來(lái)告訴人們應(yīng)該去做什么，這些年輕人在大學(xué)里已經(jīng)聽(tīng)得足夠多了。我們請(qǐng)他們來(lái)參加討論、共同工作。

建筑是關(guān)于熱情的，但你無(wú)法教授熱情，你只能展現(xiàn)熱情。在教育中，你不能總是告訴人們?nèi)プ鲞@做那，你能做的只能是給他們一個(gè)樣子。這些年輕人會(huì)去看、去學(xué)習(xí)和吸收。當(dāng)然，要有所收獲你自己必須足夠好，來(lái)我們這里的學(xué)生都經(jīng)過(guò)挑選，大部分都是很好的。通常在第一個(gè)月，他們有些不知所措，然后才開(kāi)始學(xué)習(xí)。這就是我想我們應(yīng)該做并且正在做的。當(dāng)然，這并不意味著大學(xué)不好。大學(xué)的學(xué)習(xí)非常必要，但當(dāng)你結(jié)束大學(xué)學(xué)習(xí)時(shí)，你需要更多。你需要現(xiàn)實(shí)，需要熱情，有些時(shí)候還要做一些小的抗?fàn)帯?/p>

還有一件事是要教給年輕人或者應(yīng)該說(shuō)展現(xiàn)給年輕人的，就是關(guān)于固執(zhí)和堅(jiān)持。如果沒(méi)有這一點(diǎn)，你無(wú)法進(jìn)步。因?yàn)槟憧偸亲龀鲆恍〇|西認(rèn)為還可以，但其實(shí)遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)不夠。你還需要再多做一點(diǎn)，否則你總是無(wú)法到達(dá)中心，而只是在周邊轉(zhuǎn)圈。我認(rèn)為這對(duì)于年輕人非常重要。你要對(duì)他們喊：“垃圾，不夠好，重做！”在大學(xué)里往往不這樣，但在現(xiàn)實(shí)生活中你不得不小心謹(jǐn)慎。你要不斷嘗試和等待，直到達(dá)到最好的那一刻，這種感覺(jué)就像到了某一時(shí)刻突然鈴聲響起來(lái)一樣。要達(dá)到這一刻十分不易，這需要時(shí)間；也并不偶然，你要付出工作和熱情。

WA: You said that architecture is about exploring. Your works are not with strong sense of personal style, but you prefer to find inspiration from specific place and context. Hangzhou is historic city with beautiful landscape and cultural heritage, and also with many new constructions like other big cities in China. You also said that you never take a new job without visiting the place. What inspiration did you find here when you first visited the site? What make you decide to take this job?

Renzo Piano: Our office is a partnership, we have worked together since 20 to 30 years ago. For this project, Mark and other colleagues came before me, and collected all the necessary information, then we talked and made some work, then I came. But during that first period, that lasted 6 months, with out team coming here and of course the client coming to Genova, we started to collect information and develop some concepts.

And when you come to Hangzhou, one of the urban inspirations is nature and water. The nature here is beautiful. through the window where we are, looking at the shadow on that wall, you realize the relationship between building and nature, they work well together. this was when we saw and we fall in love with it. We built 10 years ago in San Francisco, the California Academy of Sciences, in that building we designed a living roof. So we know it can be done. The living roof mean a lot: it's not just beautiful, it's also functional. So we started to dream about growing tea on the roof to protect the building in this project, then this dream became a reality, and we started to work with the consultant.

You know it's always like that, inspiration come from something, and then you have to express the concept to the team. It's like playing pingpang, not two people but with 30 people, so the ball goes everywhere. Inspiration comes from many places, it is never just one. It's coming from many places. And of course, more general terms China is about texture, light, shadow, and about sense of lightness as well. So you have to learn from the place and from the tradition. We are basically contemporary architects, we accept the challenge of living in our time, so we need to build in our way, I think it's wrong to pretend to belong to the past. We belong to the future.

Mark Carroll: Planting tea on the roofs is a good example of our exploration. It is something that

2 倫佐·皮亞諾和江南布衣總部模型（圖片來(lái)源：GOA大象設(shè)計(jì)）

came instinctively, looking at the nearby hills with the cultivation of tea plants, then working with our consultant, and discussing with our client, the concept starts becoming a reality. At first you think maybe the tea plants won't make very good tea, but when you start working with the specialist and consultants, you realize that the tea may be useful, to help shade the building, and possibly good to drink.

Renzo Piano: This is just one element. There are so many others, just to make an example. In the beginning we start with a little idea, and then somebody says "impossible", somebody says "why not". A good team is where nobody says "impossible"; everybody says "let's try". This is what I have to say, we have a very good team, not just talking about us, but also GOA, our partners, the client, and the builder. You know somebody is coming from Venice to do the concrete. Sometimes people don't like to learn, they just say I know how to do the job. But we need the positive attitude of people, where everybody says "let's try", it's kind of an optimism, kind of desire to do things. this is also a very important element in our work.

WA: Compared with many other architects, you pay more attention to construction and details. But the construction quality in China is relatively low compared to Europe. Do you think you could ensure the construction quality of this project? If yes, howcould you ensure that?

Renzo Piano: Paying attention to detail is part of our duty. We also give a lot of attention to light, to the value of the site. We also paying a lot of attention to the social side, and how to make place for people to enjoy. An architect must be good enough in doing many things, including being a good builder. An architect that is not a good builder is like a pianist that doesn't play the piano, or like a painter that doesn't paint. So consequently you must be interested in detail. Our exhibition that will open tomorrow in Shanghai is called "piece by piece", so of course we work piece by piece.

But the architect only doing good detail is not enough. You need to do good detail in a good project, for a good reason. You need a number of things to come together. And also, the good detail is about beauty. It is about celebrating the sense of life and the sense of transparency. A good detail is never just by itself, not just to show you are clever. It's the same thing when you write, you don't write for the pleasure to make good phrase, the good phrase must mean something, or otherwise it doesn't matter. So being architect doing just good detail is quite academic in reality. We are working on details because we believe there is a connection between good detail and beauty, and civic value. The detail is just part of the story, it's like a good director, I've been a good friend to many of those people, in the concert hall that do rehearsals, and they could immediately find something that is wrong. It's detail, but it's not just detail, it's about one unite sound. So the detail is about the entirety, it's about a well-made building and the pieces coming together.

Now the second part of the question, is the quality good enough here. Yes I think it will be good. It's getting better and better. And I think this country has the energy and desire to learn. We work with people, sometimes they don't know how to do. But they learn, and this is the way the community changes. This is also the way we became a good office, we were not the same at the beginning, because you learn. You know what, to learn you need to be a bit humble. To learn you have to be able to absorb.

Mark Carroll: I think we have started a good process. Actually we cannot follow the construction process as well as we could in the Europe. therefore, we have developed a process of making mockups. So they make small pieces of the building that we review. Maybe we do that piece two or three times, until we get the right quality. then it becomes the standard, and they just repeat it. We hope that we are making a well built building with pieces that are well made, and we just repeat it many times. That's how we make our buildings, like our exhibition, as you know that it's called "piece by piece". It's a good reason we call that, because we design pieces and then we repeat them over and over. For example, our piece for the facade is made of pressed aluminum, that is repeated over 4000 times. Then we have the green facade, we design the pieces to hold the plants, that piece will be repeated maybe 2000 times. the finish material will be exposed concrete. It has to be very good, and that is difficult. This is the great value about our client, they accepted this idea. We brought a good Italian builder that has made concrete for Tadao Ando in Italy. We worked with him in the United States for the Kimbell museum, and he is here in Hangzhou now.

WA: You come from a family of builders. You said that it was good because it kept you away from academia, from the easy pleasure of creating form, which was dangerous for young students. Our magazine is based on Tsinghua University, as I know some student from Tsinghua University get the opportunity to intern in your office. What do you think about the architectural education today? What is the way you prefer for young architects training?

Renzo Piano: Well, I don't know about what to do about architectural education, I know what we can do. In our office, we created a small foundation. the foundation is made by our money, we don't ask for other people's money. With this money, about 17 to18 young people coming from all over the world, from China, America, Africa, South America, from everywhere. And they stayed with us for 6 month, in our office in Genoa and Paris. In Italian there is a word "bottega", it's a way to learn by doing. It's from the Renaissance, for the people study sculpture or painting. there are things to learn from the day by day experience. We don't like to sit down and to tell people what to do. They got enough in the university. We invite people to come to the meetings and to work in the office.

the work is about passion, but you cannot teach passion, you can only show passion. In education, you cannot keep telling people what to do, the only thing you can do is to give them example. the young students learn by watching and absorbing. Of course to do this you have to be good, and normally those students are good, they were very well selected. Typically for the first month they were lost, and then they started to learn. This is what I think we should do and we are doing. But it doesn't mean that the university is not good. You need the university. But at the end of the university, you need more. You need the reality, you need passion, and you need also a little fighting sometime.

There is one thing you have to teach young people, or I would say showing to young people, is about obstination. Without obstination, you go nowhere, because you do something fine, but it never enough. You need a bit more, without sublime obstination, you never get in the center, but you always get the periphery. I think this is also very important for the young people. You need to tell them "Garbage, it's not good enough, do again!" Sometimes in the university they don't do that. But in the real life you have to be careful. You have to wait, try and try again, and then you could reach that moment like the bell ringing. that is not easy, it takes time, but it's not casual, it's coming from work and passion.

注釋：

1) 江南布衣杭州總部基地位于杭州城西天目山路，地處西湖與西溪之間，包含辦公、美術(shù)館、藝術(shù)中心、秀場(chǎng)及商業(yè)等功能，是一個(gè)綜合性的藝術(shù)園區(qū)。 由倫佐·皮亞諾建筑工作室與GOA大象設(shè)計(jì)共同設(shè)計(jì)完成。倫佐·皮亞諾通過(guò)圍合的方式在地塊內(nèi)創(chuàng)造了一個(gè)130m×95m的中心廣場(chǎng)，與西班牙馬德里主廣場(chǎng)（Plaza Mayor）尺度相似。同時(shí)又對(duì)地塊進(jìn)行切割，創(chuàng)造出廣場(chǎng)與城市之間的連接和滲透，這些切線限定出不同的植被、鏡面水池及下沉廣場(chǎng)等豐富的景觀元素。建筑體量在首層通過(guò)內(nèi)退和通透的玻璃以實(shí)現(xiàn)懸浮的效果，并在8-9層進(jìn)行退臺(tái)，屋頂作為第五立面將盡可能被茶樹(shù)覆蓋，朝向廣場(chǎng)的立面被設(shè)計(jì)成特殊的生態(tài)綠化幕墻。倫佐為此反復(fù)推敲，創(chuàng)作了特殊的節(jié)點(diǎn)做法，成為項(xiàng)目中最為有趣的元素之一。該項(xiàng)目從意大利引進(jìn)的清水混凝土施工團(tuán)隊(duì)Dottor Group，花費(fèi)了將近8倍的代價(jià)，意欲打造中國(guó)乃至世界領(lǐng)先的清水混凝土。（項(xiàng)目說(shuō)明文字來(lái)源：GOA大象設(shè)計(jì)）

WA：請(qǐng)問(wèn)您出于什么原因選擇邀請(qǐng)倫佐·皮亞諾來(lái)設(shè)計(jì)這個(gè)項(xiàng)目？這是他在中國(guó)的第一個(gè)項(xiàng)目，之前也有人曾嘗試邀請(qǐng)他來(lái)中國(guó)做項(xiàng)目但未能成行，您認(rèn)為他又是出于什么原因接受了這個(gè)項(xiàng)目的委托？

李琳：因?yàn)槲乙彩且粋€(gè)建筑愛(ài)好者，很喜歡在旅行的時(shí)候去看建筑。我覺(jué)得倫佐的建筑有兩種氣質(zhì)并存。基本上他的每個(gè)建筑都有自己的個(gè)性，但又有共同的特點(diǎn)——就是都還蠻優(yōu)雅的。我本身也是做設(shè)計(jì)的，我覺(jué)得我們?cè)趯徝郎系幕救の哆€是蠻符合的。比如，他很強(qiáng)調(diào)比例、尺度，以及各種細(xì)節(jié)。另外，他具有冒險(xiǎn)精神。他在每個(gè)項(xiàng)目里都有嘗試新的東西，包括我們這個(gè)項(xiàng)目也做很多新的嘗試。他當(dāng)初在說(shuō)服我做一些新嘗試的時(shí)候說(shuō)，“我不希望過(guò)15年你來(lái)找我，說(shuō)我們當(dāng)初的野心不夠?！蔽矣X(jué)得這兩方面能同時(shí)并存，和我們?cè)O(shè)計(jì)服裝的理念也比較接近，能和他合作我還蠻慶幸的。

他自己和我講過(guò)之前他回絕一些來(lái)自中國(guó)的項(xiàng)目主要有兩個(gè)理由：一是因?yàn)橹袊?guó)人通常給的時(shí)間太短；二是有些項(xiàng)目過(guò)于商業(yè)，他不是特別有興趣。他覺(jué)得我們這個(gè)項(xiàng)目在工期和很多方面的接受度上都比較高。另外可能就是直覺(jué)吧，我們見(jiàn)面溝通比較能互相理解，這也是很重要的一個(gè)原因。

WA：剛才在工地現(xiàn)場(chǎng)的會(huì)議中我也看到他對(duì)項(xiàng)目各個(gè)方面的品質(zhì)都有比較高的要求，但目前中國(guó)建筑總體上的建造品質(zhì)相對(duì)歐美要低一些。在您這個(gè)項(xiàng)目中如何來(lái)解決這樣的差距？作為業(yè)主，從時(shí)間和成本上您能接受建筑師提出的這樣比較高的要求嗎？對(duì)工程的整體控制是否在您原來(lái)設(shè)想的范圍之內(nèi)？

李琳：中國(guó)普遍的建造品質(zhì)其實(shí)要低很多。這也是我們之前幾年很辛苦的原因。比如，我們一再說(shuō)要找有這種高品質(zhì)意識(shí)的管理團(tuán)隊(duì)和工人，這個(gè)要求還是蠻高的。不過(guò)我覺(jué)得中國(guó)也就是這樣在進(jìn)步的。我們會(huì)盡自己最大的努力，有些地方確實(shí)也是超出了我當(dāng)初的設(shè)想，但我希望最后的結(jié)果是值得的。

比如像這個(gè)清水混凝土，真是一波幾折。為了達(dá)到好的施工品質(zhì)，最后決定50個(gè)意大利工人要在這里干1年多的時(shí)間。就清水混凝土這部分，我們付出的代價(jià)至少是原來(lái)的8倍以上。但是一次次試驗(yàn)看到的東西越來(lái)越好，至少將來(lái)呈現(xiàn)的應(yīng)該是中國(guó)能看到的最好的清水混凝土吧。

倫佐在我看來(lái)是一個(gè)非常有智慧的人。他曾經(jīng)說(shuō)他有世界上最好的客戶，我們交流時(shí)會(huì)互相問(wèn)很多問(wèn)題，我覺(jué)得這是一個(gè)互相了解的過(guò)程。在整個(gè)過(guò)程里，他不會(huì)向你提出要求你必須要怎么樣。他曾說(shuō)過(guò)“固執(zhí)只有在一種時(shí)候是好的品質(zhì)，就是當(dāng)你懂得傾聽(tīng)的時(shí)候”。他第一次和我見(jiàn)面就曾說(shuō)他是一個(gè)“傾聽(tīng)者”，他說(shuō)，“我會(huì)傾聽(tīng)，我不傲慢。”但在這個(gè)過(guò)程中他不斷地呈現(xiàn)很好的東西給你看，就像這個(gè)清水混凝土，我最大的毛病就是不能拒絕好東西。那很自然的，大家就往一個(gè)方向努力了。

這個(gè)項(xiàng)目原來(lái)計(jì)劃是2017年底完工，但因?yàn)橐M(jìn)意大利施工團(tuán)隊(duì)的原因往后拖了，可能至少要到2018年。不過(guò)做完這次我也不打算再做業(yè)主了，這次主要是為了自己的辦公樓。

3 倫佐·皮亞諾在工地現(xiàn)場(chǎng)

WA：剛才在工地現(xiàn)場(chǎng)的會(huì)議中我也看到倫佐·皮亞諾對(duì)項(xiàng)目很多地方都有超出國(guó)內(nèi)通常建造品質(zhì)的比較高的要求，您在這個(gè)項(xiàng)目中既是業(yè)主，又是中方的合作建筑師，帶有這樣雙重的身份，您也認(rèn)同并且接受他提出的這些品質(zhì)上的要求嗎？

陸?zhàn)汉蛡愖艉献?，就意味著在設(shè)計(jì)上肯定是以他為主導(dǎo)，也必須給予他完全的信任和支持。我覺(jué)得他基本上是現(xiàn)在建筑大師中少數(shù)或者可以說(shuō)唯一一個(gè)還保留著傳統(tǒng)手工技藝的建筑師。這不是說(shuō)他在追求裝飾性，而是說(shuō)他把手工的優(yōu)雅一直貫穿在設(shè)計(jì)里，很實(shí)際地落實(shí)到每個(gè)細(xì)部上。剛才我們工作會(huì)議上你也看到了，他在設(shè)計(jì)上永遠(yuǎn)都是追求完美的。

4 倫佐·皮亞諾與馬克·卡羅爾（右）在現(xiàn)場(chǎng)樣板間

在預(yù)算可能的范圍內(nèi)，我們當(dāng)然希望做到最好。實(shí)際上商業(yè)建筑在出售時(shí)，不是我們投入越多，就能得到相應(yīng)的收益。作為業(yè)主，在選擇建筑師時(shí)就要想明白你要的是什么。對(duì)李總來(lái)說(shuō)，她是為了實(shí)現(xiàn)自己的理想或者對(duì)城市建筑和空間的愿望，是邀請(qǐng)一個(gè)真正的建筑大師來(lái)共同打造一個(gè)偉大的項(xiàng)目，項(xiàng)目本身對(duì)她而言就是一件藝術(shù)作品。作為中方合作方，我們和他們的合作十分緊密、不分你我，為了實(shí)現(xiàn)所有的設(shè)計(jì)理念，我們的設(shè)計(jì)團(tuán)隊(duì)甚至包括施工團(tuán)隊(duì)，做了很多目前國(guó)內(nèi)行業(yè)里前所未有的努力和嘗試。

WA：作為中方合作建筑師，在整個(gè)建造過(guò)程中的具體協(xié)調(diào)溝通工作都是您這里負(fù)責(zé)，您認(rèn)為要滿足品質(zhì)上的要求，到目前為止在建造實(shí)現(xiàn)過(guò)程中哪個(gè)方面是最困難的？

陸?zhàn)呵逅炷潦亲罾щy的。因?yàn)榍逅炷潦┕げ粌H需要獨(dú)特的配方，更要對(duì)從材料開(kāi)始到攪拌、支模、澆筑等每一道工序精準(zhǔn)的控制，是一個(gè)精細(xì)活。必須所有工人的水平都很高才能保證大面的效果是好的，但項(xiàng)目同時(shí)還有工期要求。我們現(xiàn)場(chǎng)做了好幾次樣板，但要整個(gè)項(xiàng)目能控制到這樣的品質(zhì)，是極其困難的。我們現(xiàn)在所有核心筒和大面的實(shí)墻都是由Dottor來(lái)做，大約有4萬(wàn)m2；所有梁板是中方總包做，大概10萬(wàn)m2，意大利工人對(duì)中國(guó)工人做一些技術(shù)上的指導(dǎo)。

5 倫佐·皮亞諾與李琳（左）在清水混凝土樣板前

所以一開(kāi)始我對(duì)這個(gè)決定心存疑慮，因?yàn)轱L(fēng)險(xiǎn)太大。 如果是一個(gè)2萬(wàn)m2的項(xiàng)目，這個(gè)決心會(huì)容易下得多。當(dāng)然也有成本上的問(wèn)題，我們一開(kāi)始希望少做一點(diǎn)，但最后還是決定完全按照倫佐的設(shè)計(jì)來(lái)實(shí)現(xiàn)。這可能就是所謂大師的氣場(chǎng)，敢于突破規(guī)則和界限。基于他的經(jīng)驗(yàn)，他當(dāng)然知道Dottor能把清水混凝土做得非常好，但他也未必有把握整個(gè)項(xiàng)目都能做到這個(gè)品質(zhì)，因?yàn)轫?xiàng)目的規(guī)模遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)超過(guò)了他們以前所做過(guò)的清水混凝土工程。

其實(shí)好的建筑師和差的建筑師差別可能就是在這里，是否能引導(dǎo)和推動(dòng)所有人去不斷探索和挑戰(zhàn)，并最終達(dá)到理想的設(shè)計(jì)效果。當(dāng)然，他也需要好的業(yè)主支持，我相信他也有過(guò)不好的經(jīng)驗(yàn)，所以他在選擇項(xiàng)目和業(yè)主時(shí)也非常慎重。

Interview with Renzo Piano and the Project Team of JNBY Headquarters in Hangzhou

UN Lingbo