王碧薇

今年是中英文化交流年。年初，英國首相卡梅倫在慶祝中國農(nóng)歷新年的賀詞中提到，2015年中英關(guān)系將迎來“黃金時代”。在習近平主席出訪英國前夕，《黨建》雜志、黨建網(wǎng)于10月8日專門邀請英國愛丁堡公爵菲利普親王的特別顧問、英國漢學家Martin Palmer（中文名：彭馬田）來做客，就中英文化交流的一些話題進行了采訪。

Wang： I know that you are a translator of many Chinese classic books， like the Shang Shu， the Zhuang Zi， and the Yi Jing. I am very curious about how did you fall in love with Chinese culture and such Chinese classic books？

王：你是《尚書》《莊子》《易經(jīng)》等中國古籍經(jīng)典英文版的翻譯者。我很好奇你是如何對中國文化和這些中國古籍經(jīng)典產(chǎn)生興趣的？

Martin： Well， when I was 18 years old， I went to Hong Kong to work in a Christian home. That taught me basic classical Chinese. Then， I went to Cambridge University. In Cambridge， I studied theology and religious studies， and classical Chinese. That deepened my knowledge. You have a good question about why I was interested in the classics. When I got to Hong Kong in 1972， I realized that in the whole of my time in school in England， I had never studied anything about Chinese philosophy， Chinese history or Chinese religion.

彭馬田：我18歲的時候來到香港，在一個基督教家庭工作，這段經(jīng)歷讓我認識了簡單的繁體中文。后來，（回到英國），我來到劍橋大學學習。在劍橋我的專業(yè)是神學宗教研究和中國古文，這增加了我的中文知識。你提了一個很好的問題：我為什么會對中國古籍經(jīng)典產(chǎn)生興趣。我1972年回到香港，我意識到我在英國受到的所有教育都沒有讓我對中國哲學、中國歷史和中國宗教有所了解。

I studied nothing about China. So I was hungry to find out this wonderful and complex culture that I was in. I just simply read every book that I could lay my hands on about China. But I found that a lot of the translations were quite clumsy and quite bad. I just thought that somebody would do a better translation. Few years later， I started to do so.

我對于中國什么都沒有學到。所以我非?？是罅私膺@個我所處的神奇而深奧的文化。于是，我立即把我手邊每一本關(guān)于中國的書都拿出來讀了一遍。但是我發(fā)現(xiàn)許多英譯書非常差強人意。我就想有沒有人可以做一些精彩的翻譯呢？于是，沒過幾年，我就開始了這項工作。

Wang： When and why did you really decide to translate them？

王：什么時候你正式?jīng)Q定翻譯中國古籍經(jīng)典？有什么樣的契機？

Martin： There was the only book the people in the West knew from China——the Yi Jing. They knew that， but that was a terrible translation. I thought I had to go， and I thought it was the most difficult book to translate of all.

彭馬田：當時，西方人唯一知道的來自中國的書是《易經(jīng)》，盡管為人所知，但是這本書翻譯得并不好。我意識到了自己翻譯的責任，同時我也認為它在我翻譯的所有著作中是最難的一本。

I should say at the beginning that I do not think I translate. I interpret. I do not think it is possible to translate from one culture to another. What you can do is to interpret one culture to another. So this culture understands a bit more about that culture.

首先我需要指出的是，我并不認為我自己是在翻譯，其實我是在解讀。一種文化是不能被翻譯成另一種文化的，我們能做的是將一種文化向另一種文化進行解讀。不同文化間也會因此加深對彼此的了解。

Wang： There are the two books from you. They are the Shang Shu and the Zhuang Zi. There are a huge amount of Chinese classic books. Why did you choose these two？

王：這兩本書是你的翻譯作品：《尚書》和《莊子》。眾所周知，中國古籍經(jīng)典浩如煙海，你為什么要選擇這兩本來翻譯呢？

Martin： As I said， I have already translated the Dao De Jing. Other than the Bible and the Koran， the Dao De Jing is the most translated book in the world. My feeling is， having worked with Taoist now for 30 years， that the Dao De Jing is very important. If you want to catch the spirit of Taoism， you should read the Zhuang Zi because the Dao De Jing has no jokes and funny bits in it. The Zhuang Zi is full of jokes. So I think if you want to get the spirit of Taoism， you should read the Zhuang Zi. If you want the philosophy of Taoism， you should read the Dao De Jing.

彭馬田：正如我所說，我已經(jīng)翻譯了《道德經(jīng)》。除了《圣經(jīng)》和《古蘭經(jīng)》，《道德經(jīng)》是世界上被翻譯最多的書籍。研究道家三十年來，我的感受是《道德經(jīng)》非常重要。但是，如果你想抓住道家的思想精髓，你應該讀《莊子》。因為《道德經(jīng)》里面沒有幽默，而《莊子》里卻是滿篇幽默而輕松的故事。所以我認為，如果你想理解道家的思想，去讀《莊子》。如果你想弄懂道家的哲學，去讀《道德經(jīng)》。

What I love about the Shang Shu is if you want to understand the way， in which Chinese culture is rooted in history， you should read the Shang Shu. The Shang Shu is a very radical book. It teaches hierarchy， teaches the respect to the emperor， but it also teaches that the emperor only has the right to rule because of the mandate of heaven. If the people feel that the mandate of heaven has been lost by the emperor， they have the right to overthrow the emperor.

So I think it is an important book. I think it is the oldest history book of China. I think it reveals to the West an understanding of the continuity of Chinese history from Xia and Shang， right the way through to the present day. Unless you read the Shang Shu， I do not think you can understand China today.

我喜歡《尚書》的原因是，如果你想理解中國文化在中國歷史中的根源，那么就去讀《尚書》?！渡袝肥且槐痉浅；A(chǔ)而根本的書。它談到了等級制度， 談到了對皇帝的尊敬。它同時提到皇帝只是因“天賦神權(quán)”而取得統(tǒng)治權(quán)力。如果百姓覺得皇帝失去了這種天賦的神權(quán)，那么他們就有權(quán)力推翻這個皇帝。

所以我認為《尚書》是一本非常重要的書。它是中國最早的史書。它向西方揭示了中國歷史從（堯舜禹到）夏、商，再到今天的連續(xù)性。除非你讀《尚書》，否則我不認為你能理解今天的中國。

Wang： These two books are very popular among English readers， right？

王：這兩本書在英文讀者中很受歡迎對嗎？

Martin： The Zhuang Zi is very popular indeed because there is the fascination with Taoism. So the Zhuang Zi sells very well.

彭馬田：《莊子》確實非常受歡迎，因為道家思想（對于英文讀者來說）有著很強的吸引力。所以《莊子》銷量很好。

But the Shang Shu has just been out over a year. It is selling well because people are beginning to be aware of the fact that if you listen to President Xi very often， he is quoting Confucius. He is also quoting the Shang Shu. So in order to understand your president， you have to read Confucius， and you have to read the Shang Shu.

For example， I was asked to give copies of the Shang Shu to the royal family and to the British government， so they could read it to understand， if you like， where President Xi’s moral basis is coming from. My guess is the Shang Shu will grow in popularity.

《尚書》才剛剛出版一年，但是它也銷量不錯，因為人們開始認識到習近平主席經(jīng)常引用孔子（《論語》），他也引用《尚書》。所以要了解你們的主席，你需要讀孔子，讀《尚書》。

比如說，英國王室和英國政府都要求看我翻譯的《尚書》，他們想要了解習近平主席的思想和精神來源。我猜這本書將會越來越受歡迎。

Wang： Have you ever gotten some feedbacks from your English readers？

王：你從讀者那里得到了哪些反饋？

Martin： Yes， I do. The publishers often got correspondence back. On the Zhuang Zi， I suppose the funny comments back. Somebody wrote in and said： “I bought this book for philosophy. It is not a philosophy. It is full of jokes and stories.” So I wrote back and said： “that is the best kind of philosophy that there is.” Most people love the translations because they are accessible. They can understand this material.

彭馬田：是的。出版人常常會收到反饋。關(guān)于《莊子》有很多有意思的點評。一個讀者給我寫信說：“我買了這本書想要讀哲學，但是它不是哲學。書里面全都是笑話和故事?！蔽一匦诺溃骸斑@就是最好的哲學?！贝蠖鄶?shù)人們喜歡這些翻譯是因為它們很容易接近。讀者是可以讀懂它們的。

Wang： What influences do these two books have on Western nations and English speakers， especially British society and British， to understand Chinese classic culture？

王：這兩本書對于西方國家和英文讀者，特別是英國社會和英國人了解中國傳統(tǒng)文化產(chǎn)生了哪些影響？

Martin： I think the Zhuang Zi tells the British and people in the West in general， that China is fun. In the Zhuang Zi， it has wonderful descriptions of the Tao， the relationship between Tao and heaven， and earth， and humanity. It contains a very radically different understanding of our place in nature than Western philosophy.

Western philosophy basically says there is nature， and there are us. We have nothing to do with that （nature）. We observe it. We look at it. We manage it， and， I am sorry to say， we ruin it. Environmental destruction is probably the biggest thing we do.

Taoism， especially in the Zhuang Zi， says， the followers， and you， and I， and this tea， and this table， we are all one under heaven and on earth. We， human beings， have the responsibility to keep the balance of Yin and Yang， and the flow of Qi. So it is a radically different notion of reality.

So I think， on one level， the Zhuang Zi offers the West a very different set of glasses， through which to see the world and to relate to it. And also， it is funny. I think Taoism is in general， but the Zhuang Zi is particular. It is challenging， in a very accessible way， some of the assumptions of the Western philosophy and Western politics. So that has a big impact.

彭馬田：我想《莊子》告訴了英國人以及西方人中國是有趣的。在《莊子》里，有非常精彩的對于“道”的描述，還有對于道和天、道和地，以及道和人類關(guān)系的闡釋。它里面蘊含了與西方哲學從根本上不同的對于自然和我們生活環(huán)境的理解。

西方哲學基本上強調(diào)那是自然，這是我們?nèi)祟?。我們沒法對自然做任何事。我們觀察它，注視它，控制它，同時我很抱歉地說，我們摧毀了它。破壞環(huán)境可能是我們做的最大的一件事。

道家，尤其是在《莊子》中，說花、你、我、這杯茶和這張桌子，在天之下，在地之上，所有事物都歸一。我們?nèi)祟愑胸熑伪３株庩柕钠胶庖约皻獾捻槙沉鲃印Ｋ哉f這是（和西方）從根本上不同的觀點。

所以我認為，在一定程度上，《莊子》為西方提供了一副迥然不同的眼鏡來看世界，并和世界取得聯(lián)系。同時，它還是非常有趣的。我認為道家具有普遍性，而《莊子》具有獨特性。它對一些西方哲學和西方政治中的假設以令人接受的方式提出了挑戰(zhàn)。所以說《莊子》對西方有很大的影響。

Confucius， I hope what this would do is to make people realize that Confucianism is also a profound way of understanding the world. Again， what the Shang Shu offers is a radically different perspective on history and power.

翻譯孔子（《尚書》），我希望這可以讓人們認識到儒家同樣為認識世界提供了一條內(nèi)涵豐富的路徑。如前所述，《尚書》為（西方）認識中國歷史和中國權(quán)力格局提供了一個全然不同的視角。

Wang： How do you combine Chinese culture and British culture together well in your translation works？

王：你是如何在你的翻譯作品中將中國文化與英國文化很好地融合在一起？

Martin： Well， I hope I do. I think the great point of the books that I translated is that they are full of stories. The Shang Shu is full of speeches， but you will also get these adventures and the stories. And I think， the British love stories. We have poems， songs and stories. So there is a great infinity of the combination between Chinese culture and British culture because there is also a great scale of Chinese culture telling stories. The Zhuang Zi， the Lie Zi， or the stories of Guanyin， these are the stories about us.

彭馬田：我希望我的作品很好地融合了它們。我認為我翻譯的書都是充滿了故事的?！渡袝分腥渴茄菡f，但是你同樣可以找到其中的冒險經(jīng)歷和故事。同時我認為，英國人是喜愛故事的。我們擁有詩歌、歌曲和故事。我認為中英文化和諧共處有無限可能，因為大量中國文化也都在講故事?！肚f子》《列子》，以及觀音的傳說，這些都是關(guān)于我們?nèi)祟惖墓适隆?/p>

So I think British culture and Chinese culture love the stories， and that is why I think in the long period， we have been in touch as cultures， which goes back to the 1278 when a Christian monk from Beijing travelled all the way to meet England， and celebrated communion for him. So， the first recorded meeting we have of someone from China meeting the English King is in the 1278. Ever since then， we have loved the both cultures’ love to telling stories.

英國文化和中國文化均熱愛故事，同時這也是為什么兩種文化在相當長的時間里都保持聯(lián)系。這種聯(lián)系可以追溯到1278年，一名基督教徒從北京一直游歷到英國。（在英國我們）為他舉行了宗教儀式。所以，關(guān)于中國人受到英國國王接見的第一份記載來自1278年。從那以后，我們兩國對彼此文化都喜歡講故事這件事非常高興。

Wang： Can I say the stories are the bridge for Chinese culture and British culture getting together？

王：我可以說故事是將中英文化連接起來的橋梁紐帶嗎？

Martin： I think it is， and that is very important for our politicians to know because politicians feel sometimes that the stories are not that important as facts and figures. I have to say President Xi is very good at telling stories. He tells a story， or uses an image， or uses a painting or reference. What he does is telling a story and he will draw out a philosophy. He does not tell the philosophy alone.

彭馬田：我想是的，同時對于政治家而言，他們必須知道這一點。政治家們有時會認為故事不像事實和數(shù)字那樣重要。我必須要說習主席非常擅長講故事。他喜歡講故事或者用一個形象，一幅圖或者一個參照。當他講故事的時候，他會從故事里抽取出哲理，而不是單單講哲學道理。

Wang： Let’s move from the Chinese traditional culture to the modern world. You know that this year is the Chinese-British Culture Exchange Year， and our President Xi Jinping will visit Britain in October. How do you estimate the current communication and exchange condition between Chinese culture and British culture？

王：讓我們從中國傳統(tǒng)文化回到當代世界。今年是中英文化交流年，中國國家主席習近平將于10月對英國進行國事訪問。你如何評價當前中英文化間的交流現(xiàn)狀？

Martin： I think most of the communication is very superficial. I think we have become obsessed in the West with the economic explosion of China. It is an extraordinary period of growth. We have ignored the fact that China brings with it a whole cultural sophistication. I find the most people still think of China as being sort of at the end of Cultural Revolution. As though there is no personal freedom， and as though everything is controlled. Not really.

彭馬田：我認為現(xiàn)在兩國間的文化交流大多數(shù)還停留在表面。西方社會只關(guān)注中國經(jīng)濟爆炸式的增長，這是一段超乎尋常的增長時期。我們已經(jīng)忽略了中國文化的深邃。我發(fā)現(xiàn)很多英國人認為中國在某種程度上還處在文化大革命剛剛結(jié)束的時期。在中國好像沒有自由，所有的事情都是被控制的。然而事實并非如此。

But I think one of the things I would suggest China is that you need to emphasize more on history and culture. Now President Xi does. I do not know whether his advisors understand this， but when he talks about history and culture， we are kind of going： “wow！” Because we want to understand. So， the more you could provide us， with exhibitions， with stories， the more you can encourage people not just to come here and make money， but to come here and really understand the culture.

但是有一件事我想要建議中國，那就是中國應該花更多的注意力在（傳播它的）歷史和文化上?，F(xiàn)在習近平主席就做得很好。我不知道他的智囊團知不知道，但是當他提到中國歷史和文化時，我們的反應是：“wow！”因為我們想要了解中國（歷史和文化）。所以，你們提供給我們越多展覽和故事，我們就越不會認為中國人來到英國只是為了賺錢，而是真正了解這樣的文化。

Wang： Thank you very much！ I hope our two nations’ relationship could be better and better.

王：非常感謝你！我希望我們兩國的關(guān)系可以變得越來越好！