項(xiàng)琳斐/XIANG Linfei

陳雨瀟 譯/Translated by CHEN Yuxiao

2019 年1月21日，2016威尼斯建筑雙年展金獅獎(jiǎng)得主、耶魯大學(xué)教授伊尼亞基·卡尼塞羅在北京市城市規(guī)劃設(shè)計(jì)研究院進(jìn)行了題為“未完成建筑的機(jī)遇”的講座。講座之后，《世界建筑》對伊尼亞基·卡尼塞羅進(jìn)行了簡短的采訪。

WA: Rica工作室從2014年開始在西班牙和美國進(jìn)行實(shí)踐，現(xiàn)在你們又成立了時(shí)代建筑設(shè)計(jì)事務(wù)所，可以向中國的讀者介紹一下你們的事務(wù)所嗎？

伊尼亞基·卡尼塞羅：時(shí)代設(shè)計(jì)公司是我們在北京以及深圳設(shè)立的新建筑事務(wù)所。我們在西班牙和美國擁有涉及實(shí)踐與學(xué)術(shù)兩方面的豐富的設(shè)計(jì)及建造經(jīng)驗(yàn)。

這些年來我們在設(shè)計(jì)與建造，參與國際競賽以及在常春藤聯(lián)盟中任教之間找到了平衡。我們非常期待將我們的經(jīng)驗(yàn)具體應(yīng)用到中國的環(huán)境中。

WA: 您認(rèn)為在西班牙、美國和中國的實(shí)踐有什么差別嗎？

卡尼塞羅：我們現(xiàn)在的時(shí)代與以往的歷史階段相比，非常獨(dú)特的一點(diǎn)是信息比以往任何時(shí)候都更加觸手可及。我們可以了解其他國家、不同文化正在發(fā)生的事情，并將那些知識(shí)與信息應(yīng)用到我們自己的語境中。我們感興趣的是在一個(gè)特定的場景中產(chǎn)生的想法，比如在西班牙語境中產(chǎn)生的理念，如何能運(yùn)用到完全不同的限制條件當(dāng)中，比如完全不同的中國的土地，以及這里的經(jīng)濟(jì)、文化和社會(huì)環(huán)境。不同想法的碰撞會(huì)產(chǎn)生新的對話，由此我們有機(jī)會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)新的有趣的建筑策略。

1-3 2016威尼斯雙年展西班牙館“未完成”展/Exhibition"Unfinished" at the Spanish Pavilion, 2016 Venice Architecture Biennale (攝影/Photos: Luis Diaz)

WA: 在2016年威尼斯建筑雙年展上您為西班牙館策劃了“未完成”展，這次展覽呈現(xiàn)出一種改善既有建成環(huán)境的樂觀態(tài)度。在中國，我們面臨著同樣的問題。隨著用地供應(yīng)的縮減，城市更新和改造成為重要議題。您認(rèn)為，在這樣的情況下建筑師的角色會(huì)發(fā)生變化嗎？也就是說建筑師不僅是創(chuàng)造新建筑了？卡尼塞羅：當(dāng)然了！在2007年以前，西班牙每周都會(huì)有很多公共建筑的設(shè)計(jì)競賽。2007年以后，當(dāng)經(jīng)濟(jì)危機(jī)席卷西班牙，公共投資大幅減少，可用的土地也被削減，所以建筑師只能改變我們實(shí)踐的本質(zhì)。我們必須開始仔細(xì)地審視城市和現(xiàn)有建筑，以發(fā)展新的策略，增建的同時(shí)保留原有結(jié)構(gòu)，使其具備新的適應(yīng)性，甚至新的策略性拆除。通過更新和改造使既有建筑具有更多的靈活性，以適應(yīng)新的用途和功能。我相信在當(dāng)代背景下，我們的工作不是創(chuàng)造與城市環(huán)境隔離的新的建筑物，而更多的是通過策略性的介入轉(zhuǎn)變現(xiàn)存事物的意義，這對改進(jìn)與重新解讀既有建筑具有重大影響。

WA: 在改造項(xiàng)目中，您認(rèn)為設(shè)計(jì)中最重要的是什么？

卡尼塞羅：我認(rèn)為重要的是有一個(gè)開放的視野，不僅僅著眼于你要介入的項(xiàng)目，也能關(guān)注到它所處的更宏觀的背景。關(guān)鍵是能夠解讀城市中和改建項(xiàng)目所處的環(huán)境中存在的所有關(guān)聯(lián)、所有網(wǎng)絡(luò)，并思考這個(gè)新的介入會(huì)如何影響到這棟建筑，及其所處的整個(gè)環(huán)境。這對我們極其重要，因?yàn)楫?dāng)我們接到一個(gè)非常具體的項(xiàng)目委托時(shí)，我們需要拓寬設(shè)計(jì)目標(biāo)，應(yīng)對客戶可能并沒有意識(shí)到的其他城市問題。

我們認(rèn)為，作為建筑師，我們有這個(gè)責(zé)任，一方面要回應(yīng)我們的客戶和他們的具體需求，但同時(shí)也要思考我們的介入對更大的環(huán)境的影響，比如思考我們的設(shè)計(jì)會(huì)如何被接受，如何與其所處的環(huán)境關(guān)聯(lián)，如何隨時(shí)間改變。城市會(huì)受到既有建筑衰敗的影響，而我認(rèn)為我們應(yīng)該考慮到我們的設(shè)計(jì)中的所有變量。

WA: 在更新設(shè)計(jì)中，您更看重什么，舊的還是新的元素？

卡尼塞羅：我認(rèn)為既不是舊的也不是新的，而是二者之間的對話。我們相信建筑介入的力量在于創(chuàng)建一個(gè)對話、一個(gè)連接，可能會(huì)重建場地的歷史并讓公眾看到它。所以我認(rèn)為作為建筑師我們有能力發(fā)掘隱藏的故事，通過功能使用、建造或材料的策略性介入，重建之前人們看不到的東西。我們相信做建筑就是在講故事，發(fā)掘老故事，推動(dòng)新的故事發(fā)生。

WA: 在一棟歷史建筑中，會(huì)有不同時(shí)代的歷史信息，你如何取舍呢？

卡尼塞羅：這是個(gè)很有意思的問題。這取決于這些信息與當(dāng)代環(huán)境的關(guān)聯(lián)性。所以在一些特定的時(shí)刻，你可能需要做出選擇，是強(qiáng)調(diào)某一特定的時(shí)期更重要，還是重建建筑方案的最初意義，或者改變它、擺弄它。

我認(rèn)為創(chuàng)造和選擇你想與當(dāng)前語境以及未來交流的內(nèi)容，是設(shè)計(jì)策略的一部分。在我們的NAVE16項(xiàng)目——馬德里舊屠宰場改造的案例中，我們對展現(xiàn)20世紀(jì)初期馬德里所使用的建造技術(shù)非常感興趣。這就是為什么我們剝掉了石膏層，將建筑內(nèi)部的老磚墻和磚石結(jié)合的建造技術(shù)展現(xiàn)出來。所以可能有人認(rèn)為這是一個(gè)基于經(jīng)濟(jì)限制條件做出的決定，但這更多的目的是展示西班牙一個(gè)世紀(jì)以前所使用的傳統(tǒng)的建造技術(shù)，喚醒場所的記憶并贊美它。

WA: 在無窮知識(shí)的時(shí)代，未來難以預(yù)測。但是作為建筑師，您必須在設(shè)計(jì)中考慮到未來的適應(yīng)性，您如何應(yīng)對這樣的矛盾？

卡尼塞羅：在我看來這里沒有矛盾。我認(rèn)為這只關(guān)乎靈活性。作為一名建筑師，我需要回應(yīng)具體的問題和當(dāng)前的需求，但同時(shí)，我也對如何將一個(gè)空間轉(zhuǎn)變成別的東西非常感興趣。

而不可預(yù)測性對我來說一直是設(shè)計(jì)階段主要考慮的問題，就是不斷想象可能出現(xiàn)的新場景。當(dāng)然你無法知道將來會(huì)發(fā)生什么，但是在設(shè)計(jì)中開放的選擇越多越好。這是與靈活性的需求相關(guān)的。

舉個(gè)例子，在Pitch住宅的項(xiàng)目中，我們設(shè)計(jì)的重要概念就是決定將所有的儲(chǔ)藏空間推到邊界。這樣為室內(nèi)簡單的重組帶來可能，于是它可以適應(yīng)不同的使用方式而發(fā)生改變。窗戶并沒有連接一個(gè)特定的房間，它們更像一個(gè)連續(xù)的條窗，可以帶來空間的持續(xù)重組。我們的興趣在于創(chuàng)造適應(yīng)性空間，盡可能的靈活，允許未來新的場景出現(xiàn)。

WA: 您的教學(xué)經(jīng)歷對您的實(shí)踐有影響嗎？

卡尼塞羅：絕對有。我最初在美國康奈爾大學(xué)任教，之后去了哥倫比亞大學(xué)、庫帕聯(lián)盟學(xué)院和耶魯大學(xué)。我對美國學(xué)術(shù)界的感受是，與我接受教育的歐洲體系非常不一樣。我認(rèn)為美國大學(xué)的教學(xué)方法更概念性、實(shí)驗(yàn)性和整體性，而歐洲的教學(xué)傾向于工科的方式。我在馬德里高等建筑學(xué)院（ETSAM）獲得了技術(shù)的背景，在那里我學(xué)到了設(shè)計(jì)需要的策略和工具，學(xué)到要永遠(yuǎn)考慮整合結(jié)構(gòu)、建造、材料等建造建筑的專業(yè)知識(shí)。在美國，多數(shù)的常春藤學(xué)校都對我們的社會(huì)正在經(jīng)受的現(xiàn)實(shí)問題（政治、環(huán)境、經(jīng)濟(jì)等）有著強(qiáng)烈責(zé)任感，而更少有技術(shù)手段。自從在美國任教以來，我們一直在應(yīng)對更廣泛的話題，關(guān)于氣候變化、全球變暖、可持續(xù)性問題、不平等問題等等，這為我們提供了一個(gè)機(jī)會(huì)，去處理建筑專業(yè)領(lǐng)域以外的更具全球性的問題。我們非常有興趣通過設(shè)計(jì)來處理這些問題，并提供解決方案。因此，我認(rèn)為這段經(jīng)歷讓我對建筑師的角色有了更大的抱負(fù)，讓我意識(shí)到我們所面臨的機(jī)遇以及如何介入。

WA: 您教過中國學(xué)生嗎？ 請談?wù)勀鷮χ袊鴮W(xué)生的印象。

卡尼塞羅：我們在美國和中國教過很多中國學(xué)生。中國學(xué)生對出國學(xué)習(xí)有著濃厚的興趣，尤其是去美國的大學(xué)。他們非常聰明，非常勤奮，我總是對他們的技能和他們充分的準(zhǔn)備印象深刻。通常他們有點(diǎn)害羞和安靜，我總是鼓勵(lì)他們更開放，多交流，與美國文化和他們的同學(xué)建立更多的聯(lián)系，因?yàn)槲艺J(rèn)為他們會(huì)在文化交流中受益匪淺。美國學(xué)生非常開放和友好，創(chuàng)造了豐富的學(xué)習(xí)環(huán)境，同時(shí)他們也能受益于中國學(xué)生的學(xué)習(xí)規(guī)范性。在美國學(xué)校教中國學(xué)生以及到中國來教書，使我更加了解中國文化和當(dāng)前的問題，這對我來說非常有趣。

7-9 Pitch住宅/Pitch House（7,9 攝影/Photos: Roland Halbe, 8攝影/Photo: I?aqui Carnicero）

WA: 那么您對中國城市環(huán)境的改善有什么想法？

卡尼塞羅：我看到中國城市中對胡同和其他現(xiàn)有住宅建筑干預(yù)和引導(dǎo)新現(xiàn)實(shí)的巨大潛力。我認(rèn)為這很重要。

我在北京看到的是，在許多社區(qū)依靠重復(fù)和使用相同的設(shè)計(jì)來建造更多的單元。最后，你會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)同一座建筑重復(fù)了上百次，這與胡同傳統(tǒng)的更加豐富的肌理形成對比。我對城市的興趣在于城市規(guī)劃者和建筑師如何為城市帶來新的現(xiàn)實(shí)，從而改善城市生活，通過設(shè)計(jì)加強(qiáng)社區(qū)居民之間的關(guān)系，帶來更多宜人的公共空間。

我看到了建筑設(shè)計(jì)和城市化之間的某種脫節(jié)。這里有很多很好的機(jī)會(huì)去思考城市中的公共空間，及其與人們在公共空間中的行為方式和舒適感的關(guān)系，因此建筑和街道之間的過渡充滿了城市更新和重組的潛力。

WA: 您想對中國的年輕建筑師說點(diǎn)什么嗎？

卡尼塞羅：他們需要知道，他們擁有巨大的潛力改變和改善他們所生活的環(huán)境，所以我鼓勵(lì)他們發(fā)展批判性思維，質(zhì)疑和不接受環(huán)境現(xiàn)狀，他們要知道自己有能力改變它。

他們應(yīng)該有這樣的疑問，這個(gè)城市，或者這個(gè)社區(qū)是我喜歡的嗎？我會(huì)如何想象30年后的城市？我能為城市或新建筑的設(shè)計(jì)提供哪些改進(jìn)？作為建筑師和設(shè)計(jì)師，我們是否具備靈活性并考慮到設(shè)計(jì)中不斷變化的環(huán)境？因此，我建議他們對我們生活的環(huán)境有一個(gè)批判性的認(rèn)識(shí)，客觀地看待當(dāng)前的現(xiàn)實(shí)，以及它可以如何改進(jìn)。我會(huì)鼓勵(lì)他們相信設(shè)計(jì)師具有創(chuàng)造一個(gè)更好世界的力量。□

4-6 馬德里舊屠宰場改造/Slaughter House in Madrid (攝影/Photos: Roland Halbe)

On January 21, 2019, Yale professor I?aqui Carnicero, winner of the golden lion at Venice Architecture Biennale 2016, gave a lecture entitled"The Opportunity of an Unfinished Architecture" at the Beijing Institute of City Planning and Design.World Architecture interviewed with I?aqui Carnicero after the lecture.

WA: Rica Studio was founded in 2014 based in Spain and the United States. Now you also have AGE Design Group. Could you introduce your office to our Chinese readers?

WA: Do you think there is any difference in term of practice in Spain, the United States and China?

Carnicero: A very unique aspect of our current times compared with previous periods of history is that information is more accesible than ever before. We can be connected to what is happening in different cultures in other countries, and we can apply that knowledge and that information to our own context. We are interested in how ideas generated in one specific scenario, let us say in the Spanish context, can be applied to a very different set of constrains, the Chinese territory and its economic, cultural and social situation that might be very different. In that friction of distinct ideas that can create new dialogues we find opportunities for new interesting architectural strategies to emerge.

WA: In the exhibition"Unfinished" you curated at the Spanish Pavilion as part of the 2016 Venice Architecture Biennale, you present an optimistic attitude to improve the existing built environment.In China, we are facing the same issue. With the reduction of land supply, urban regeneration and reuse has become the crucial topic in China. Do you think the role of the architect will change in such situation? That is to say the role of architect is not only creating new building?

Carnicero: Definitely! Before 2007, many competitions were launched every week to generate new public buildings. After 2007, when the big economic crisis hit Spain, the public investment was drastically reduced and the amount of land available cut, so the architect had to change the nature of our practice. We had to start looking carefully in the cities and the existing buildings, in order to develop new strategies that could keep the consolidated constructions but bringing new additions, new adaptations, even new strategic demolitions that allow for innovation and transformation of the existing to bring more flexibility and serve to new purposes and programs. I believe that in the contemporary context we should be working not with the notion of incorporating new architecturalobject isolated from the context of the city but more in transforming the meaning of what already is there by strategic interventions with a big impact in improving and reinterpreting the existing.

WA: In a renovation project, what do you think is most important to think about?

Carnicero: I think it is important to have an open point of view, to look not only to the project in which you are intervening but also the broader context where it is located. It is crucial to read all the synergies and all the networks happening in the city and in the surroundings where the renovation project is located, and reflect about how the new intervention may affect not only the building but also the context. This is extremely important for us,because when we receive a commission with a very specific program, we need a broader design agenda,an ambition to respond to the other urban issues that the client might not be aware of.

We consider that, as architects, we have that responsibility, on the one hand we have to respond to our clients and their very specific needs but at the same time we should reflect on the impact of our interventions on the larger context, considering for example how our designs would be perceived and relate to the their surroundings and evolve over time. The city is affected by the degradation of existing buildings, and I think we should be considerate of all variable parameters in our designs.

WA: When retrofitting a building, what do you value most, the new or the old?

Carnicero: I think neither the old nor the new but the dialogue between both. We believe that the power of the architectural intervention resides in the creation of a dialogue, a connection that might rebuild the history of a site and make it visible to the public. So I think that as architects we have the capacity to reveal hidden stories, to reconstruct what was invisible to the people by strategic interventions related to the use, the construction or the material. We believe that making architecture is about building narratives and revealing the old ones,and facilitating new stories to happen.

WA: In historical buildings, there are historical information of different times. How do you make the choice?

Carnicero: That is a very interesting question. Well,it depends on how relevant the information might be to the contemporary context. So at a certain point, you might need to choose, if it is relevant to highlight one specific period, or to rebuild the original meaning of one architectural proposal, or maybe to change it and play with it.

I think that is part of the design strategy, to create and to select what you want to communicate not only to the current context but also to the future. In the case of our project of NAVE16, the old slaughterhouse in Madrid, we were very interested in revealing the construction techniques that were used in Madrid at the beginning of the twentieth century. That is why we peeled off the plaster layer and we showed the interior of the building, the old brick wall and the construction techniques of the brick combined with stone. So one may think that this was a decision based on economic constrains, but it was more about revealing traditional construction techniques used a century ago in Spain, bringing the memory of the place back and celebrating it.

WA: In the age of the not-knowing, it is difficult to predict the future. But as an architect, you have to take into account the future adaptability of a project. How do you deal with such contradiction?

Carnicero: I do not see a contradiction there. I think it is all about flexibility. As an architect I have to respond to very specific issue and current demands but at the same time I'm very interested in responding to how the space might be transformed to something else.

And this unpredictability for me is always a main issue, a main thought that is on the drawing board, to constantly imagine new scenarios to happen. Of course you can not know what is coming but the more options that you keep open in the program the better. That is connected to the need of flexibility.

For instance, in the main concept of our project the Pitch House one main decision was pushing to the boundaries all the storage space. That allow for the easy reconfiguration of the interior, so that it can change, and adapt to different ways of being used. As the windows are not connected to a specific room, they operate more like a continuous stripe window that would allow a constant recon figuration of the space. Our interests lay on the idea of creating adaptable spaces, as flexible as they can be when it is possible, to allow for new situations to happen in the future.

WA: Has your teaching experience influenced your practice?

Carnicero: Absolutely. I started teaching in the US at Cornell University and after that at Columbia, Cooper Union and Yale University. My perception of Academia in the US is very different from the European system I was educated in. I think that American universities have much more conceptual, experimental, and holistic approach than universities in Europe that tend to follow the Polytechnic approach. I think I achieved the technical background in ETSAM (the Superior Technical Schoolof Madrid) where I learned the necessary strategies and tools for design, but also to always consider and integrate structure,construction, material, specifically the knowledge of building architecture. In the US, in most of the Ivy League Schools, there is a strong commitment with current issues that our societies are suffering,(political, environmental, economic, social…) and less of a technical approach. Since teaching in the US we have been dealing with broader topics related to climate change, global warming, issues of sustainability, inequality… and that is always an opportunity to engage with problems that are not that specific to the architectural realm but are more global. We are very interested in how design engages with these issues and can offers solutions.So I think this experience has given me a broader ambition regarding the role of the architect and realize the opportunities that we are facing and how to intervene on them.

WA: Have you taught any Chinese student? Tell us your impression of Chinese students.

Carnicero: We have taught many Chinese Students in the States, and also in China. There is a strong interest in Chinese students to study abroad,particularly in American universities. They are extremely intelligent people and really hard workers,and I am always impressed by their skills and how well prepared they are. Usually they are a little bit shy and quiet, and I always try to encourage them to be more open, more communicative and to establish more connections with the American culture, with their classmates, because I think they incredible benefit from each other, from the cultural interchange,as American students are very open and friendly,creating an enriched learning environment and could benefit from the working discipline of the Chinese students. Teaching Chinese students in american Academia and coming to China to teach, has made me more aware of Chinese culture and current issues and that is extremely interesting to me.

WA: Then do you have any idea about improving urban environment in China?

Carnicero: I have seen huge potentialof intervening and directing new realities looking at Hutongs and other existing residential buildings in Chinese cities.I think that is important.

What I have seen in Beijing is that in many neighbourhoods they rely on repetition and use the same design that is already there to build more units. At the end you see the same building repeated a hundred of times, in contrast to the traditional more diverse fabric of the Hutongs. My interest in the city lays on how the urban planners and the architects can bring new realities to the cities that could improve the urban life, designs capable to reinforce the relationships between people in the neighbourhoods, bringing more inhabitable public spaces.

I see a certain disconnection between the building design and the city's urbanism. There are many good opportunities to think about the public space in the city and its relationship with how people behave and feel comfortable in public space, so this transition between the building and the streets are fullof potential to regenerate and reframe the city.

WA: Do you want to say something to Chinese young architects?

Carnicero: They need to know that they have huge potentialof changing and improving the context of the world they live in, so I would encourage them to develop critical thinking, questioning and non accepting the context the way it is knowing they have the power of transforming it.

They should be asking questions like is this city, or this neighbourhood the one I like? How do I want to imagine the city in 30 years from now?What improvements can I offer to the city or to the design of new buildings? Do we as architects and designer embrace flexibility and consider the changing context in our designs? So basically, I would recommend then to have a critical perception of the context where we live, to be objective about the current reality and how it could be improved.And I would encourage them to believe in the power of designers to create a better world.□