趙元超 / [Interviewee]ZHAO Yuanchao

[時(shí) 間]2018年1月30日 / [Date]January 30, 2018

[地 點(diǎn)]西 安 / [Place]Xi’an, China

[采訪人]陳 茜 詹皓安 / [Interviewer]CHEN Xi, ZHAN Haoan

Q1 立足于這片土地，首先想請(qǐng)您談?wù)剼v史豐厚的古都西安的文化特色及其對(duì)塑造城市空間的影響。

在西安我們做每個(gè)項(xiàng)目可能都會(huì)產(chǎn)生與這片土地歷史文化的關(guān)系，都有很多挑戰(zhàn)。西安的“歷史土層”比較厚，它歷經(jīng)中華文化最重要的幾個(gè)年代，包括周秦漢唐等。在顯性的城市遺址方面，明代的城墻依舊保留著完整的格局，唐代的城市格局仍然表現(xiàn)出宏大的氣勢(shì)（圖2）。昨天晚上我們討論的一個(gè)項(xiàng)目，都已經(jīng)位于高新區(qū)了，在考證歷史遺址時(shí)還發(fā)現(xiàn)了金光門。在西安的創(chuàng)作離不開歷史文化。

西安這個(gè)城市疊加著不同時(shí)期的基因?！吨芏Y·考工記》里西周的豐鎬，就是中國城市的典范。我們研究城市稍微深一點(diǎn)的話，就脫離不開唐長安的規(guī)劃，所以我形容一座西安城，就是半部中國史。對(duì)城市來說，還是建筑承載著民族的歷史文化，也是文化、政治、經(jīng)濟(jì)的集中體現(xiàn)，此外還有隱性的文字、詩歌等，必然會(huì)有著深刻的影響。

隨著歷史的發(fā)展，西安衰落了。從一個(gè)“都”變成一個(gè)“府”，有了很明顯的軍事特色，崇尚簡潔且快速又很實(shí)在的東西。關(guān)中傳統(tǒng)民居講究“房子半邊蓋”，存在為了節(jié)省木頭、“肥水不流外人田”等說法。對(duì)此我還有一種解讀，鐵打的江山流水的兵，就是快速和簡單。在飲食上，羊肉泡饃也是一樣的道理。

綜合來看的話，西安既有都城的基因，又有軍事重鎮(zhèn)的特色。我覺得不管是哪種生活方式，文化基因的影響是非常深刻的，它帶給西安人很多文化自信，同時(shí)又有失落的自卑，這種自信和自卑交織在一起，共同存在于西安這個(gè)城市的發(fā)展歷程中。有一派學(xué)者很堅(jiān)守西安這座古城的特色，出現(xiàn)了唐皇城復(fù)興計(jì)劃、恢復(fù)歷史古都風(fēng)貌的一些做法；也有些學(xué)者更主張國際化，要求符合整個(gè)城市發(fā)展的規(guī)律。這兩種觀點(diǎn)貫穿在西安的建設(shè)發(fā)展中，但還是有一點(diǎn)大家達(dá)成了共識(shí)，就是西安的城市很方正，不應(yīng)該有太多的曲線，建筑也應(yīng)該是大平大方。例如我們做過西咸新區(qū)的一個(gè)項(xiàng)目，就是把方塊進(jìn)行到底，建筑基本上都是正方的形體，然后組成一個(gè)和諧的現(xiàn)代城市。還有西安的行政中心城市設(shè)計(jì)，我們也很糾結(jié)，一定是坡屋頂嗎？為了順應(yīng)城市設(shè)計(jì)，該設(shè)計(jì)作為西安一個(gè)貫穿漢唐到明清再到現(xiàn)在城市中軸線上的政府項(xiàng)目，應(yīng)該著力表現(xiàn)西安的城市文化特色，最后采用了庭院式布局和坡屋頂?shù)姆绞?，表現(xiàn)對(duì)歷史的一種尊重，取得了良好的效果，這個(gè)是規(guī)劃師和建筑師合力完成的一個(gè)典型項(xiàng)目。

圖1 / Figure 12018年1月3日，趙元超總建筑師在中國建筑西北設(shè)計(jì)研究院接受采訪Mr. ZHAO Yuanchao in Interview, January 3, 2018, China Northwest Architecture Design and Research Institute Co.,Ltd., Xi’an, China

每個(gè)建筑師做設(shè)計(jì)都會(huì)帶有很強(qiáng)烈的地域色彩或者基因的影響，這個(gè)基因有些是隱性的，有些是顯性的。任何建筑創(chuàng)作都脫離不了它的文化和所處時(shí)代。原來我們身處這個(gè)城市還不覺得，但當(dāng)你離開西安看看其他城市文化，就會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)西安還有那么一點(diǎn)特有的味道和調(diào)性，包括西安的飲食文化和人們的性格，都和這個(gè)城市相關(guān)。像西安人的生冷倔強(qiáng)，與我們建筑的大平正方，好像都能對(duì)應(yīng)，在人的性格中就不太喜歡過于彎彎繞繞的事兒，更希望直來直去（圖3）。

Q2 西安是座特色鮮明的城市，您認(rèn)為西安有哪些充滿活力的公共空間？它們?cè)诔鞘兄惺侨绾伟l(fā)揮作用的？

我覺得現(xiàn)代城市活力空間與它的空間界面、歷史、交通都有關(guān)系。我記得我在讀研究生的時(shí)候，有人說任何一個(gè)城市，你最想去的就是它的市中心或是傳統(tǒng)的商業(yè)中心，因?yàn)檫@是一個(gè)有活力的空間。當(dāng)然，一個(gè)城市超過幾百萬人口以后，它的中心肯定不止一個(gè)，而會(huì)有多個(gè)。但活力空間是具有一些特點(diǎn)的，類似于我們的鐘鼓樓，它是西安的典范，尤其在鐘鼓樓廣場(chǎng)建成以后，既反映了“晨鐘暮鼓”的歷史景觀，也是老城中最大的城市開放空間。我覺得西安鐘鼓樓歷史格局非常好，也很有意思，交相輝映。北院門歷史街區(qū)也非常有趣，滿足了現(xiàn)代城市多樣性的需求；南門城市廣場(chǎng)，也是比較有活力的一個(gè)區(qū)域，但可惜有些地方?jīng)]有完全連通，對(duì)整個(gè)片區(qū)活力的體現(xiàn)有所影響；西安南郊的年輕人都喜歡在小寨活動(dòng)，也是因?yàn)橛刑厣蜌v史文化。

我讀書的時(shí)候也是很關(guān)注建筑的造型是什么，一定是要語不驚人死不休。實(shí)際上對(duì)于一個(gè)城市或者一個(gè)空間來說，建筑就只是一個(gè)層次，構(gòu)成生活空間的還有它的歷史、文化、自然等。一個(gè)城市的文明程度、開放空間的多少就是一個(gè)重要指標(biāo)。像鐘鼓樓廣場(chǎng)這么黃金的地方，20年前就能夠開辟一片城市綠地，這還是很有決心和先知的。所以我覺得人的活動(dòng)才是最終構(gòu)成這個(gè)城市活力的根本。我經(jīng)常舉例說麗江，它的標(biāo)志性建筑是什么？建筑就是皮，所有的建筑圍合成空間，人在其中的活動(dòng)、生活才是這個(gè)城市的核心。就像你們經(jīng)常去的北院門，人的活動(dòng)才是根本，實(shí)際上也沒太多好吃的，但是人聚在一起以后，人看人的那種熱鬧感覺，很愜意。

如何創(chuàng)造人的空間，是建筑師們?cè)O(shè)計(jì)的重點(diǎn)。過去我們特別重視建筑內(nèi)部的空間，但對(duì)于城市來說，建筑的界面又構(gòu)成了城市空間的圍合。那么在這個(gè)空間，怎么能把所有的消極空間都變成積極的空間，讓人使用起來很有趣，這是我們建筑師關(guān)注的重點(diǎn)。

圖2 / Figure 2西安城區(qū)整體鳥瞰 / Rendering of Xi’an City

過去人們自發(fā)設(shè)計(jì)的傳統(tǒng)聚落和街道，確實(shí)能帶給建筑師很多啟發(fā)，對(duì)于這個(gè)現(xiàn)象我也覺得很奇怪。我剛從貴州回來，那里的農(nóng)民做的東西都很和諧，空間聯(lián)系很巧妙，和自己的需求結(jié)合得也很好。為什么專業(yè)的建筑師一做反而都不行了呢？這是不是我們的訓(xùn)練或者建筑教育里邊，對(duì)建筑形式的關(guān)注太多，對(duì)人的關(guān)注較少？再次提到我們的北院門，那里單純的建筑沒有一個(gè)特別好看的，但是它有空間的多樣性，有大尺度的西羊市，有彎彎曲曲的化覺巷直到大清真寺，還有民族的多樣性以及多樣文化的融合，這就構(gòu)成了一個(gè)豐富多彩的城市生活，也讓它有了足夠的吸引力。

北院門歷史街區(qū)卻又有很多隱患，最近市里提出要對(duì)這片區(qū)域進(jìn)行現(xiàn)代化的提升改造。但是怎么改造確實(shí)挺難，情況非常復(fù)雜。我們參與過一些類似項(xiàng)目，包括現(xiàn)在還在做的書院門歷史街區(qū)、小雁塔周圍里坊制的研究、三學(xué)街旁邊碑林博物館的北擴(kuò)建工程等。怎么把遺產(chǎn)保護(hù)和城市更新結(jié)合在一起，這已經(jīng)不僅是一個(gè)建筑學(xué)的問題，更牽涉到整個(gè)社會(huì)的發(fā)展，包括土地的產(chǎn)權(quán)結(jié)構(gòu)等關(guān)系。到底是騰籠換鳥還是就地更新是很難選擇的，特別對(duì)西安這個(gè)城市來說，它最大的魅力脫離不了老城所具有的歷史。所以我們常說，一個(gè)好的城市是能講出很多故事的。

Q3 請(qǐng)您談?wù)剬?duì)西安舊城保護(hù)與城市發(fā)展的看法。

剛才提到了城市擁有的顯性或隱性的基因，所以舊城的保護(hù)絕對(duì)不是大拆大建。

我覺得這些老城市主要的魅力是街巷的肌理和它的空間，所以我認(rèn)為老城改造和提升需要的是一個(gè)“微創(chuàng)手術(shù)”和“針灸療法”。我們?cè)谀祥T片區(qū)做的設(shè)計(jì)，也是在老城市里的“心臟搭橋手術(shù)”。它是整個(gè)城市對(duì)外迎賓的會(huì)客廳，表面上和我們城市整體格局一樣，但會(huì)在地下空間進(jìn)行現(xiàn)代化建設(shè)，適應(yīng)城市發(fā)展（圖4）。

對(duì)于老城區(qū)這一塊，我也不太贊同原模原樣的城市保護(hù)，城市的發(fā)展和更新，要讓各階層的人享受到發(fā)展的紅利。我小時(shí)候就在老城住，那里其實(shí)很艱苦，生活各方面都很不方便，沒有廁所、下水道、自來水。北京、西安這些城市的保護(hù)為什么比上海要難得多？一個(gè)重要的原因就在于北京或者西安就是農(nóng)業(yè)時(shí)代發(fā)展的社會(huì)，而上海已經(jīng)是一個(gè)前工業(yè)社會(huì)。石庫門都有衛(wèi)生間、有廚房，它已經(jīng)經(jīng)過現(xiàn)代化改造了，類似巴黎一樣。保護(hù)是有條件的，我們的城市保護(hù)是把一個(gè)農(nóng)業(yè)時(shí)代的居住或者生活樣本，提升到一個(gè)后現(xiàn)代的社會(huì)生活。我的個(gè)人觀點(diǎn)是，不一定刻意地追求形式，只要把城市空間尺度保護(hù)好，把街道的肌理保護(hù)好，采用漸次的有機(jī)更新就可以。這里也有很多比較成功的實(shí)例，比如西安的湘子廟街的青年旅社及民宿絕對(duì)不能有大尺度的改造更新，否則一改之后把街道的肌理全都破壞掉了。

中國解放前就有四萬萬同胞，而我們現(xiàn)在有13億，而且每個(gè)人的生存需求比過去的要求高得多，生活方式也不太一樣。所以歷史街區(qū)的保護(hù)，我覺得從尺度上、層次上去做是一種方法，絕對(duì)不能大拆大建。實(shí)話說我們現(xiàn)在也沒找到一個(gè)好的方法，我們都在嘗試，像漢中三遺址的保護(hù)規(guī)劃，有些原地保護(hù)多一些，有的會(huì)大修或重修，還有在保護(hù)肌理?xiàng)l件下有機(jī)更新。我有一個(gè)觀點(diǎn)，可能不應(yīng)太刻意追求所謂風(fēng)貌的協(xié)調(diào)，還應(yīng)該從生態(tài)等角度來考慮。我們20世紀(jì)六七十年代有些建筑，我覺得還能用，而且這也是一種時(shí)代的演進(jìn)。現(xiàn)在有一種觀點(diǎn)說風(fēng)貌不協(xié)調(diào)，就要全部拆了，我也不太同意?？赡芴珢坌问教珢勖孀樱@背后就有很多經(jīng)濟(jì)的、生態(tài)的問題。我們拆完一棟樓以后一大堆垃圾，這些往哪放？然后又再建一棟樓，又是生態(tài)的重復(fù)破壞。現(xiàn)在我們已經(jīng)到了保護(hù)不同時(shí)期建筑遺產(chǎn)的階段，20世紀(jì)60年代住的筒子樓，雖然簡陋但改造后總能用，但所謂的歷史民居都搖搖擺擺，像風(fēng)燭殘年的老人。大家說后者一定要保護(hù)，而前者就是風(fēng)貌不協(xié)調(diào)要拆除，這個(gè)觀點(diǎn)不太全面，需要有一個(gè)更全面的觀點(diǎn)或者更理性的對(duì)城市本質(zhì)的看法。這方面我們也在探討，怎么把一個(gè)農(nóng)業(yè)社會(huì)居住方式變得適應(yīng)現(xiàn)代生活。

建筑的本質(zhì)是使用，一定要把現(xiàn)代生活融入保護(hù)建筑之中，我們現(xiàn)在的保護(hù)也是希望讓遺址活起來。針對(duì)西安南門片區(qū)我們還真的做了些城市設(shè)計(jì)的研究，實(shí)際上也是圍繞人怎么在這活動(dòng)的研究。盡管周邊有很多不協(xié)調(diào)因素，但這沒辦法，那是一種社會(huì)發(fā)展過程中的產(chǎn)物，也不是我們能夠左右的，我們能做的是讓它更好一些。

Q4 渭河是西安的母親河，請(qǐng)您談?wù)剬?duì)西安城市濱水空間的看法。

其實(shí)西安一直是個(gè)缺水的城市，說它是母親河，這可能是現(xiàn)在我們的一種提法。原來說是“八水繞長安”，實(shí)際上我們印象更深的是城河。所有的城市的發(fā)展都是在水邊的，要不在就海邊或是河邊。西安的城市發(fā)展，從渭河北側(cè)的秦咸陽到渭河南岸的漢長安，再到唐長安，都與水的利用和防治有關(guān)。

現(xiàn)在提出西安要跨過渭河發(fā)展，要跳出城墻思維，要站在秦嶺之巔看西安。但也有人提出，西安如果沒有城墻，還有什么？這說明一點(diǎn)，西安的發(fā)展一直存在著兩種思潮的碰撞，一種說古老的太多，一種說現(xiàn)代化的不夠。

現(xiàn)在所有的城市都很重視自己所依賴的河流，像原來西安的灞三角洲，現(xiàn)在是渭河，還有灃渭三角洲。我的態(tài)度是人勝不了天，我對(duì)“南水北調(diào)”有自己的看法，應(yīng)順其自然，人定順天，也沒必要建很多攔水壩之類，造成一種濱水的假象，實(shí)際上保持自然就好。說到城河，就是濠，國外的很多城河其實(shí)就是干枯的，它表示一個(gè)很原始的狀態(tài)。所以對(duì)于河流，我覺得還是應(yīng)該遵從我們老祖宗說的天人合一，我并不主張?jiān)跒I水建太多人為的東西，像京都的鴨川，它的河邊就是很多自然的狀態(tài)，土制的足球場(chǎng)、籃球場(chǎng)，水淹就淹了。對(duì)它沒有過多亭臺(tái)樓閣之類的修飾，完全是一個(gè)自然的景觀，我們也應(yīng)該用大景觀的概念進(jìn)行城市設(shè)計(jì)。

圖3 / Figure 3大西安新中心能源金融貿(mào)易區(qū)起步區(qū) / New Xi'an Center

圖4 / Figure 4西安南門廣場(chǎng)綜合提升改造工程 / South Gate Square, Xi'an

我有一個(gè)觀點(diǎn)：自然是優(yōu)于人工的。我們說“巧奪天工”，但人造再好也沒有自然的好。河流也應(yīng)該是這樣，讓它很自然地釋放天性。植物也一樣，它是一個(gè)不斷生長的生命美學(xué)，何必把它修剪得那么擬人化，做個(gè)花壇都做成動(dòng)物的形象，這并不是對(duì)生命的禮贊。河流也是這樣，我們?cè)阱弊鲞^一個(gè)博物館，就是一個(gè)Z字形的建筑，匍匐地伸入河道，與河流長在一起，人工物一定要少而精。我們現(xiàn)在對(duì)任何東西都過分打扮，像之前對(duì)城市的“美容”運(yùn)動(dòng)，美容就是毀容了。對(duì)河流也是這樣，所以我不太贊同過度的設(shè)計(jì)。不是一說城中河就一定要想著塞納河，它也是經(jīng)過了歷歷代代多少年的建設(shè)而成的。這種觀點(diǎn)一直要滲透到我們城市的各個(gè)方面，就是設(shè)計(jì)的態(tài)度，我們要處處有設(shè)計(jì)，但看起來沒有設(shè)計(jì)，沒有雕琢的痕跡，這才是設(shè)計(jì)的最高境界。

Q5 您認(rèn)為西安居民的生活習(xí)慣有何特性？這種特性對(duì)城市空間的形成和使用會(huì)產(chǎn)生什么影響？

這個(gè)我倒覺得不是太大。西安也算是移民城市，它不太有非常明確的地域特性。你說居民的習(xí)慣對(duì)整個(gè)城市生活方式影響很大，我倒覺得是基因和性格對(duì)整個(gè)城市的影響很大。我覺得生活習(xí)慣，特別是現(xiàn)代化的文明變化很快，人們的生活習(xí)慣也在同質(zhì)化、國際化。類似于各個(gè)大房地產(chǎn)的開發(fā)，北京的萬科和西安的萬科有什么區(qū)別？現(xiàn)在工業(yè)文明帶來人的生活方式的確統(tǒng)一化了，這個(gè)生活方式對(duì)城市的影響不是太大。

當(dāng)然生活方式也包括工作生活的模式，西安在時(shí)間、距離、尺度方面的概念和北京就完全不一樣。像我們西北院的這種辦公生活綜合體，這種“前店后寢”的模式，好的方面是節(jié)約了通勤時(shí)間，但是就會(huì)造成人的生活不夠豐富，太單一，不過西安人都還挺喜歡這種模式。但是它好像也構(gòu)成不了什么主流，這種特殊的范式還構(gòu)不成對(duì)城市的影響。

Q6 剛才您也提到了外來人口的情況，那么您認(rèn)為游客與外來人口對(duì)西安城市特色塑造有何影響？

這個(gè)還是挺有影響的。西安執(zhí)政者要把旅游產(chǎn)業(yè)作為重要的支柱產(chǎn)業(yè)，肯定要在乎外地人對(duì)西安的評(píng)價(jià)。像西安的大唐芙蓉園等一系列唐風(fēng)建筑，從旅游業(yè)來說可能就是所有人的期許。西安作為國家的中心城市，要用中華文明發(fā)祥地這種高度來定位，很自然地就要去挖掘我們有什么東西，這就誕生了一批芙蓉園、華清池、大唐華清城等唐風(fēng)產(chǎn)物。這里是唐代的首都，我們就想看到唐代是多么輝煌，不然什么都看不到。

一個(gè)城市的發(fā)展，絕對(duì)不是一個(gè)人的意愿，而是結(jié)合整個(gè)城市的政府、居民、設(shè)計(jì)師的結(jié)果。我記得很早前就討論過，西安是千年古都，我們要找出一個(gè)能代表西安特色的朝代。明清有北京和南京，都比西安的規(guī)模大，遺存比較多；西安能找到的就是唐朝，這是中國最鼎盛的時(shí)期，要把這個(gè)表現(xiàn)得淋漓盡致，這是西安人的自豪，同時(shí)也是為了滿足旅游的需要。

西安的城市定位對(duì)整體城市風(fēng)貌影響很大。一個(gè)城市應(yīng)該是豐富多彩的，它不僅有唐代，還有以西安明代城墻格局為代表的一系列文化遺產(chǎn)。我們應(yīng)該表現(xiàn)各個(gè)時(shí)期，西安城墻上的箭樓等建筑很純正，它的比例非?；趾氪髿?。所以我覺得西安的發(fā)展可能是有失偏頗的，它對(duì)不同的時(shí)代都應(yīng)該尊重，而不是一提起來就是漢唐。比如西安城里邊西大街的改建就有爭(zhēng)論，本來西大街就在名城內(nèi)，但卻做了很多唐風(fēng)建筑，這就是整個(gè)旅游發(fā)展講究的“大”，只有唐代的碩大“帽子”才能滿足，這些都需要不斷的總結(jié)。

Q7 請(qǐng)您談?wù)勔詮堝\秋大師為代表的唐風(fēng)建筑對(duì)西安城市整體風(fēng)貌的影響。

張總對(duì)整個(gè)西安城市保護(hù)和城市風(fēng)貌的確立起到了不可替代的作用，這是非常有價(jià)值的。她的建筑與城市思想，確實(shí)與這個(gè)城市整體的發(fā)展很契合，為這個(gè)城市做出了很多重要的貢獻(xiàn)，完整實(shí)現(xiàn)了梁思成先生的一些理想。在她到了西安以后，城墻保護(hù)、城市風(fēng)貌等思想在西安實(shí)現(xiàn)了，張總是梁先生的繼承者，這個(gè)是對(duì)西安城市的重要貢獻(xiàn)。包括我們提到的鐘鼓樓廣場(chǎng)的設(shè)計(jì)，張總是開了城市設(shè)計(jì)先河的具體實(shí)踐者，鐘鼓樓廣場(chǎng)是城市設(shè)計(jì)的一個(gè)很重要的范例，到現(xiàn)在為止建成20年了，越來越覺得它是西安人賞心悅目的城市開放空間，代表著西安的形象，更是西安的中心和會(huì)客廳。

她的創(chuàng)作理念很早就從城市設(shè)計(jì)的角度來設(shè)計(jì)城市。比如陜博，在大雁塔的旁邊，博物館應(yīng)該反映什么？它需要一種很恰當(dāng)?shù)恼Z言來表達(dá)陜西悠久燦爛的歷史文化，這里就采用了中國宮殿的形式。去年我們給張總舉行的一個(gè)作品展就是在她設(shè)計(jì)的博物館進(jìn)行的，這個(gè)博物館都25年了依然很實(shí)用，風(fēng)采依舊，內(nèi)部空間適應(yīng)現(xiàn)代的展覽，又可以帶給人壯觀的感受。還有30年前的三唐工程，它與大雁塔的關(guān)系和整個(gè)區(qū)域風(fēng)貌的協(xié)調(diào)，也是一個(gè)很有價(jià)值的創(chuàng)作。在大雁塔周邊，你不可能想象有玻璃幕墻之類的建筑，她能夠把傳統(tǒng)空間美學(xué)和中國園林的意境體現(xiàn)出來。張總說她是在特定的地點(diǎn)做的這些創(chuàng)作，并不代表西安所有類似項(xiàng)目都會(huì)這樣做。在西安標(biāo)志性的節(jié)點(diǎn)、特定的條件、特定的建筑類型下采用這種方式，是得體的。張總設(shè)計(jì)的鐘鼓樓廣場(chǎng)是一種方式，長安塔主要使用了鋼結(jié)構(gòu)、玻璃，又是另一種方式。張總也是與時(shí)俱進(jìn)的，她覺得這種風(fēng)貌是西安在探索城市更新與城市風(fēng)貌保護(hù)中的一個(gè)重要里程碑。

同時(shí)在西安也有很多其他的嘗試，比如劉克成老師的一些作品，當(dāng)然還有我們做的一些項(xiàng)目。建筑畢竟還是要現(xiàn)代化，它不僅僅是看，還是要用的，必須適應(yīng)現(xiàn)在的生活方式和現(xiàn)在的行為。例如我們做的西安市政府，辦公樓需要高效、環(huán)境優(yōu)美，能在公園中辦公，這就是好辦公樓的重要標(biāo)準(zhǔn)。雖然上面也采用了一些坡屋頂，但是坡頂里邊也是能夠利用的空間，沒有浪費(fèi)。我們?cè)O(shè)計(jì)建筑的一個(gè)很重要的原理就是要用最小的代價(jià)換取最大的效益。

張總被評(píng)為何梁何利獎(jiǎng)、陜西省科技進(jìn)步獎(jiǎng)的獲得者，最高成就還有以她名字命名的小行星等，這都是社會(huì)對(duì)她在這個(gè)城市、在這個(gè)行業(yè)所做出的重要貢獻(xiàn)的認(rèn)可。我隨張總一起做的陜西省圖書館就很現(xiàn)代，沒有唐代大屋頂，到現(xiàn)在20年過去了，它依舊被大家評(píng)為二環(huán)邊最有代表性的建筑。很多人給張總一個(gè)標(biāo)簽，就是唐風(fēng)。實(shí)際上張總也在采用一些不同的方式，針對(duì)不同的題材、特定的地點(diǎn)來采用不同的措施，張總遇到的創(chuàng)作題材大部分是這樣，所以她就要采用這種方式。這也是我們城市設(shè)計(jì)一個(gè)很重要的原理，就是要恰到好處、得體。十年前我們和張總討論西安的發(fā)展，她也說要多元并舉、和而不同，也體現(xiàn)了她創(chuàng)作思想之廣闊。

Q8 請(qǐng)您列舉一例西安最具特色的場(chǎng)所，并說明理由。

這個(gè)特色和活力可能是結(jié)合在一起的，有特色才會(huì)有活力。在西安的話，我覺得特色的場(chǎng)所是有一些，但還沒連成線。鐘鼓樓這里就是一個(gè)點(diǎn)，代表經(jīng)典的城市中心，然后延伸到北院門傳統(tǒng)文化街，代表民俗，它們?cè)诠?jié)假日是西安最有活力的場(chǎng)所。其實(shí)鐘樓到南門就500m，南門是西安最具特色的城樓，又是西安迎接國外元首的國門，一定是有活力的場(chǎng)所。在它的東側(cè)還有獨(dú)一無二的碑林以及西安書院門。所以我一直在做一些嘗試，今后特色場(chǎng)所的連線可能就是從南門到碑林，到書院門、鐘樓，再到北院門以及清真寺。它可能涵蓋了很多西安最具特色的，也是有活力的一些場(chǎng)所。我也常思考這樣一個(gè)問題，其他城市的一些遺產(chǎn)為什么都能被拆光但西安卻沒有？就是因?yàn)槲靼驳墓亲永镞呌谢食堑幕?，西安在宋代已?jīng)成了一個(gè)府，但它依舊有那種胸懷。正如張載創(chuàng)立的“關(guān)學(xué)”的主旨：為天地立心，為生民立命，為往圣繼絕學(xué)，為萬世開太平，他這種胸懷絕不是小地方人所有的，這就是城市給予他基因里邊的廣闊的濟(jì)世胸懷，也是一種都城氣勢(shì)。

所以我覺得能把這條線連起來是非常好的。我們所說的城市設(shè)計(jì)，或是我們對(duì)城市的保護(hù)和特色的塑造，首先得把城市的亮點(diǎn)找出來，更要體現(xiàn)出來。鐘鼓樓廣場(chǎng)原來的鐘樓和鼓樓互相都不見面，通過設(shè)計(jì)這個(gè)廣場(chǎng)，才使這種晨鐘暮鼓成為了一個(gè)城市空間和一個(gè)城市的活力場(chǎng)所。如果這些不足1km的一系列城市遺產(chǎn)連接在一起，能夠把咱們前面所說的北院門、書院門、碑林等連起來，這一定是西安很具有活力的區(qū)域?，F(xiàn)在點(diǎn)狀的碑林、書院門是文化旅游旺地，北院門是民俗的飲食文化聚集地，鐘樓又是典型明代城池標(biāo)志，這些特色是其他地方都取代不了的，它們有濃厚的歷史文化以及多樣性，所以也需要我們不斷地探索。

Q9 在談了很多西安這一歷史古城的舊城問題之后，也想請(qǐng)您談?wù)剬?duì)西安新城建設(shè)的看法。

這個(gè)我們也在實(shí)踐，我們最近一個(gè)項(xiàng)目在西咸新區(qū)的中央商務(wù)區(qū)，就是在探索未來城市如何發(fā)展，如何滿足現(xiàn)在的需求，又不失文化意趣。我不愿意去提風(fēng)貌，讓西咸新區(qū)的風(fēng)貌和西安舊城一致，這太強(qiáng)人所難了。我們常容易去追求建筑與城市的表象而非本質(zhì)，形式永遠(yuǎn)是一些表象。我們就在設(shè)想這個(gè)未來的城市，想去探索一種新的方式，這里不是針對(duì)每一個(gè)地塊來做，而是做完城市設(shè)計(jì)后的一個(gè)集群式設(shè)計(jì)。這個(gè)區(qū)域的城市設(shè)計(jì)是劉太格做的，之后又聘請(qǐng)不同的建筑師各做一個(gè)地塊，但都是在這個(gè)城市設(shè)計(jì)嚴(yán)格的控制下繼續(xù)深入的設(shè)計(jì)。

在具體的設(shè)計(jì)上很重要的一點(diǎn)是，我們追求群體取勝，而非在個(gè)體上追求標(biāo)志。我們這些建筑師都默契地遵循了方正的體型，可能西安真有點(diǎn)這個(gè)基因，它是四方城，四方的宅子，什么都是四四方方的，這就是它的城市氣質(zhì)和城市性格。我們將方形進(jìn)行到底，但方形就像魔方一樣可以變化出很多方式。同時(shí)我們很重視整個(gè)現(xiàn)代城市的交通，在地下把這4個(gè)地塊全部都挖空，形成地下環(huán)廊，這樣的話地面的空間完全連續(xù)，防止地面人車混雜。我們想做個(gè)真正為人服務(wù)的城市，這里邊有很多人能夠交往的、能感到賞心悅目的、變化有趣的空間。這里還做了一個(gè)于右任的博物館，但它完全是一個(gè)按照古代木結(jié)構(gòu)來建造的房子，與周圍形成一個(gè)強(qiáng)烈的對(duì)比沖突，故事性很強(qiáng)。所有的建筑我們幾乎全部貫通，有一個(gè)二層步行空間，只有在我們集群設(shè)計(jì)這種條件下才能真的去關(guān)注城市的空間。如果是各自為政的建設(shè)，像我們目前的開發(fā)方式，它只能關(guān)注自己，而把邊角余料讓給城市。所以我們這個(gè)反過來的做法，就是希望創(chuàng)造出城市公共的空間、人的空間。

在西安城市周邊，我們是不是需要更現(xiàn)代一點(diǎn)？我覺得一點(diǎn)問題都沒有。大家現(xiàn)在實(shí)際上對(duì)什么是好空間、什么是現(xiàn)代化的有些認(rèn)知是相同的，這也是全球化的特點(diǎn)。既然是全球化，就可能會(huì)喪失部分地域化。但是西安的母城在這兒，其他地方是取代不了的。當(dāng)然，對(duì)現(xiàn)代化的探索一直是有很多種的，它們共同組成一個(gè)很豐富多彩的城市，這很正常。我曾經(jīng)寫過一篇文章叫殊途同歸，比如羅馬的城市起源或是漢長安的城市變遷，到最后會(huì)是一致的。再比如說院子，伊斯蘭對(duì)庭院也很有研究和建樹，不同地域文化只不過人對(duì)它的適應(yīng)，包括尺度、民族文化等有所差異而已。我覺得在古城這一塊我們能夠切實(shí)地保護(hù)好，其他地方可以根據(jù)我們對(duì)城市、對(duì)未來的不同理解，怎么做都可以，它也需要現(xiàn)代化、國際化，別過分地追求地域。除非是在我們的遺址旁邊，我們對(duì)遺址有尊重和敬畏的態(tài)度就行，但是做法可以另類并存。

[U-TALK]ZHAO Yuanchao·TALK about Xi’an City

[Interviewee]ZHAO Yuanchao[Date]January 30, 2018[Place]Xi’an, China[Interviewer]CHEN Xi, ZHAN Haoan[Translator]ZHAN Haoan, CHEN Xi,(from Chinese to English)

Zhao Yuanchao, born in Xi’an in 1963, graduated from Chongqing University with Bachelor of Architecture in 1985 and Master Degree from Department of Architecture theory and design in 1988. In the same year, he started his career in China Northwest Architecture Design and Research Institute, learned from National academician—Zhang Jinqiu. Now taking place as the chief architect in CSCECNWI.

Zhao Yuanchao practices nearly thirty years has created a number of modern architectures with local characteristics focusing on Xi’an and other cities, keeps on exploring his road of architecture design in the vast western land(Figure 1).

Source: Provided by Mr. ZHAO Yuanchao.

Q1 First of all, please talk about the culture features about the ancient city, Xi’an,and its impact on creating city spaces.

In Xi’an, every project we work on might face the relationship between the land and the history. There are many challenges. Xi’an has thick “History layers” that it went through some of the most important dynasties of Chinese culture, including Zhou,Qin, Han, Tang, etc. Those dominance city ruins show that rampart of Ming dynasty still remains its complete pattern, the city pattern of Tang dynasty still shows the great momentum (Figure 2). The project that we were discussing about last night is locating on new developed area but we still found the golden light gate when digging about history ruins. Creating in Xi’an can’t do without historical culture.

Xi’an has genes of different dynasty. Zhouli: Kaogongji has mentioned about Fenggao of Xizhou dynasty as a model of Chinese cities. If we learn more about cities then we’ll know about planning of Changan. So I always describe Xi’an city as half of Chinese history. To a city, architectures loading historical culture of a nation, which embodies the culture, politics, economics, and also has great impact on recessive characters and poetries.

As history developed, Xi’an has declined, from a“city” to a “county” , and turned out to be distinct military features. Admires whatever its simple, fast,and real. Traditional house in Guanzhong is fancy for ”half-built house”, in order to economize woods.I think it’s all about fast and simple. And the food,bread with mutton soup, shows same idea.

In conclusion, Xi’an has both features of capital and military base. I think both of the living styles are deeply effected by culture, which gave confidence to Xi’an people, and also the inferiority of decline. The confidence and inferiority mix together and exist in the development of Xi’an.There is a group of scholars sticking to the characteristics of the ancient city of Xi’an, and came up with practices of the revival plan of Tang dynasty’s capital, and the recovery of the ancient styled city;the others advocated internationalization, which conforms to the law of the whole city development.These two views run through the construction and development of Xi’an. But there is a consensus that Xi’an city is very square, should not have too many curves, the building should be generous. For example, we have done a project in Xi’an new district,which is based on squares, the building is basically by the form of the square, and then construct a harmonious modern city. Besides, the urban design of Xi’an administrative center, we are also very tangled, is it supposed to be the slope roof? In order to adapt to urban design, as a government program of Xi’an, which through the central axis since Han and Tang dynasty till now, should focus on performing the culture characteristic of Xi’an city, in the end, we adopted the courtyard layout and slope roof to show a respect for history, which caused a good effect. It’s a typical project done by planners and architects worked together.

Every architect designs with strong regional colors,some of them are recessive, some are dominant.No architect creation can pull away from its culture and time. We have no conscious when situate in this city, but once you leave to see other cities,you’ll fi nd the special taste and tone of Xi’an. Food culture and characters of people related to the city.Xi’an people are more attend to be straight and stubborn than being euphemism (Figure 3).

Q2 Xi’an is a distinctive city, please introduce some energetic public spaces and how they function in the city.

I think the energetic spaces of a modern city are related to its spatial interface, history and transportation. I remember when I was a graduate student,some said that in a city, the place you would like to go most should be the city center or the traditional business center. It’s an energetic space. Of course,since a city has more than a million people, there must be more than one center. But there are some features of energetic spaces, for example, the Bell-Drum Tower, it is the model of Xi’an, especially after the construction of the Bell-Drum Tower square, it not only re fl ects the historical landscape of the “morning bells and evening drums”, but also the largest urban open space in the old town.I think the history layer of Bell-Drum Tower in Xi’an is very interesting. The north courtyard historic district is also very interesting, which fi ts the diverse need of modern urban. The other example is the South Gate City Square, which is also a energetic region, but it is a pity that some places are not completely connected which impacts the vitality of the whole area. Young people in southern suburbs of Xi’an like to live in small villages because of their own characteristics and historical culture.

When I was a student, I was very concerned about the shape of the building. It has to be stunning. In fact, to a city or a space, architecture is only a layer of it, and there are other elements like history,culture, and nature that construct living space. The amount of open space is a important indicator of the civilization degree of a city. Hot spot like the Bell-drum Tower square, opened up a city green space 20 years ago, which is still determined and prophetic. So I think human activity is the ultimate foundation of the energy of this city. I often take Lijiang for example, what is the landmark building of Lijiang? Architecture is a surface, architectures construct spaces, and the activities and the living of people are the core of the city. In Beiyuanmen area,people always get together and talk to each other there. It is a very pleasant place, even though there are not so many restaurants there, because people’s activities are most important.

How to create space for people? It’s a point for designers. In the past, we focus on inner spaces of architecture, but to a city, interfaces of architecture construct the surrounding of city space. How do you turn those negative spaces into positive spaces? That’s what architects cares.

In the past, traditional settlements and streets are designed spontaneously by people, which can inspire architects. I’m confused by this phenomenon. I just came back from Guizhou, where the farmers made things very harmonious, the space connection is very ingenious, and also fi t their own needs. Why do professional architects fail to do so?Is it because our training or architectural education focus too much on the form of architecture,but less attention on people? Again, let’s talk about the Beiyuanmen area, where the building is not pretty, but it contains diverse spaces, large scale as the Xiyang market, turning lanes as Huajue alley, the Grand Mosque, the diversity of nation, and the integration of various cultures, add up as an abundant city life,which also makes it attractive enough.

However, there are many hidden dangers in the Beiyuanmen historical area. Recently, modernizing and upgrading this area is proposed. But how? It’s very dicult and complicated. We have participated in some of these projects, including the Shuyuanmen historical blocks, the study of the neighborhood system around the Xiaoyen pagoda,and the expansion project of the Stele museum next to the Sanxue street. How to combine heritage protection with urban renewal is not only an architectural problem, but also involves the development of the whole society, including the property right structure of the land. To keep the surface and update the content, or to regenerate the whole?Especially for Xi’an, its greatest charm cannot be without the history of the old city. So we often say that a good city can tell many stories.

Q3 Can you talk about your opinion about conservation and development of Xi’an?

Like I’ve just mentioned, the city has some genes of dominant and some of recessive, so the conservation of an old town must not be huge transformation.

I think the facsination of these old cities is the texture and space of the streets, so I think the transformation and promotion of the old city is a“minimally invasive operation” and “acupuncture therapy”. Our design in the South Gate area is also a “heart bypass operation” in the old city. It is the guest hall of the whole city, on the ground it looks like fi tting the pattern of our city, but in the underground space, it will be modernized and adapt to the city development (Figure 4).

For the old town part, I don’t agree with the urban protection of keeping the whole original appearance, the development and renewal of the city should let the people of all classes benefit from the development. When I was a child, I lived in an old town. It was very hard to live in that area.

They were very inconvenient in every aspect of their lives. There were no toilets, sewers, and running water. Why is the protection of these cities like Beijing and Xi’an much more diffcult than in Shanghai? An important reason is that Beijing or Xi’an is developed as an agricultural society,and Shanghai developed as a preindustrial society. There are toilets and kitchens in Shikumen,it is modernized and similar to Paris. Protection is conditional. Our urban protection is to upgrade the sample of living in an agricultural era to a post-modern social life. My personal view is that it is not necessary to pursuit form, just to protect the urban space scale and the texture of the street well,and using the gradually organic renewal. There are many examples that are more successful, such as youth hostels and homestay facilities on Xiang Zi temple street of Xi’an cannot be renovated in a large scale, otherwise the texture of the street will be destroyed.

Before the liberation of China, there were four hundred million compatriots, and now we have 1.3 billion people. Living needs of each one are much higher than before, and the way of living is dierent. So the protection of the historic block, I think it’s a way to do it on a scale or on a layer, it can’t be a big demolition. To be honest, we haven’t found a good method so far, we are still trying,like the protection planning of the three heritage in Hanzhong, some protect more, some will be repaired or rebuilt, and some organic renewal under the condition of protection mechanism, I have a point of view, which probably should not be too sedulous to pursuit of the so-called style coordination, but to consider from the aspect of ecology. There are some buildings built in the “60s and 70s”, and I thought it worked, and it was an evolution of The Times. Now there is a view that the style is incongruous, so it should be dismantled, and I don’t agree with it. Perhaps concerned too much about form and pride, there are many economic and ecological problems behind it. After we’ve taken down a building there will be a lot of rubbish, where to put them? Then build another building and repeat the ecological destruction.Now we have reached the stage of architectural heritage protection in different periods. The tube buildings which built in 60s, it’s shabby but can be used after reformed, but the so-called historical houses were swaying. It is said that the latter must be protected, and the former is the dismantling of the discongruous features. This view is not comprehensive. We need a more comprehensive view,or a more rational view of the essence of a city. In

this regard, we are also exploring how to adapt the way of living in an agricultural society to modern life.

The essence of architecture is to use it. We must integrate modern life into protected buildings. Our present protection is also intended to make the ruins more convenient to use. In the South Gate area of Xi’an, we have actually done some research on urban design, and in fact it is also a study about people activities in this area. Although there are a lot of discordant factors around it, it is a product of social development process, and can’t be decided by us. What we can do is to make it better.

Q4 The Wei river is the mother river of Xi’an, please talk about your opinion of city waterside spaces in Xi’an.

In fact, Xi’an has always been a water shortage city. It’s now a statement of calling it “the mother river”. Originally it was “Eight rivers around Changan”. In fact, it was the moat impressed us more. All the city development is by the water, like seashore or river bank. The urban development of Xi’an, from Xianyang town of Qin on the north bank of Wei river, to Chang’an town of Han and Tang on the south bank, was related to the use and prevention of water.

It is now proposed that Xi’an should crossing the Wei river to develop, thinking over the ramparts and look Xi’an from the view of Qin Mountains.But others have suggested that what would it be if there is no rampart in Xi’an? This shows that development of Xi’an has always been collided by two trends of thought. One is that there are too many ancient ones, the other is lack of modernization.

Now all cities attach great importance to the rivers they depend on, such as the Chan Ba Delta of Xi’an, Wei river, and Fengwei Delta. My attitude is that people cannot win the nature. I have my own views on the “south water to north” engineer. We should follow the rules of the nature. There is no need to build many dams and create a waterfront illusion, just to keep original. Speak of moat, many foreign moats are dry, it represents an original state. So, for the river, I think we should follow the saying of “harmony of the man and nature” from our ancestors. I don’t advocate that there are too many man-made things in the waterfront, take the Duck River in Kyoto for example, the bank of it is a natural state, mud-made football fi eld and basketball fi eld are capable of fl ood. It is a natural sight that there’s no pavilion to decorate it. We should also use the concept of landscape to do urban design.

I have a point of view that nature is superior to man. We describe amazing work as “more exquisite than heaven-made”, but man-made is never better than natural. The river should also be like this, let it release its nature. Plants are also a growing life aesthetics, we don’t have to shape it in an anthropomorphic way, make a flower bed into the image of animals, this is not the praise of life.River is the same concept as well, we have built a museum in Chanba, a Z - shaped building, creeping into the river, construct with the river, the arti fi cial things must be less and exquisite. Now we are over decorate everything, like the “city beautify”campaign before, beautify is dis fi gurement. It’s the same for rivers, so I do not agree with excessive design. Instead of talking about the river in the middle of the city, we must think about the Seine River. It has been built over the generations. This view has always penetrated into all aspects of our city, which is the attitude of design, we must have design everywhere, but it seems that there is no design, no carved traces, this is the highest level of design.

Q5 What’s the feature of Xi’an people’s living habit? How does it efect the formation and usage of city spaces?

I don’t think there’s a big in fl uence. Xi’an is also an immigrant city. It does not have very clear regional characteristics. Some say that the habits of the residents have a great in fl uence on the life style of whole city. I think it’s genes and characters that have great in fl uence on the city. I think living habits, especially modern civilization, change very fast, and people’s habits are homogenized and internationalized. What’s the difference between Vanke in Beijing and Vanke in Xi’an? like the development of major real estate, industrial civilization uni fi ed people’s life style. This way of living does not have much in fl uence on the city.

Of course, life style also includes the mode of working. The concept of time, distance and scale in Xi’an is totally dierent from that in Beijing. The living-working composite like our oce, which is in the “ shop-in-the-front-bed-in-the-back” mode,saving trac time but will cause people’s life not rich enough, too simple, but Xi’an people are still quite like this mode. Yet, it does not seem to be a mainstream. This particular paradigm does not make a dierence to the city.

Q6 You have mentioned about the migrants, how do the migrants and tourists impact the city feature of Xi’an?

This is still very in fl uential. The Xi’an government should regard the tourism industry as an important pillar, and it must certainly care about the evaluation of Xi’an by outsiders. Tourism industry may see a series of Tang style buildings such as Tang Lotus Garden in Xi’an as the target of tourists. As the central city of the country, Xi’an must be positioned with the height of the birthplace of Chinese civilization. It is very natural to fi nd out what we have. This created a series of Tang style products such as Lotus Garden, Huaqing Pool and Datang Huaqing town. Here is the capital of the Tang Dynasty, we just want to see how brilliant the Tang Dynasty is, otherwise we can’t see anything.

The development of a city is definitely not the result of one’s will, but the gathering of the government, residents and designers of the city. I remember that it’s been discussing for a long time that Xi’an is a millennium ancient capital, and we must find a characteristic dynasty that represents Xi’an. Beijing and Nanjing in the Ming and Qing Dynasties are larger than Xi’an, with much more ruins; Xi’an can only fi nd the Tang Dynasty, which is the most prosperous time in China, and we have to make it incisively. It is the pride of Xi’an people,and it also meets the needs of tourism.

Xi’an’s urban positioning has a great in fl uence on the overall urban landscape. This city should be rich and colorful, not only owns the Tang Dynasty,but also owns a series of cultural heritages represented by the pattern of the Ming Dynasty ramparts in Xi’an. We should show every dynasty. The buildings on the Xi’an ramparts are orthodox, with brilliant scale. So I think the development of Xi’an may be biased. It should respect different times instead of only focusing on Han and Tang Dynasties. For example, the reconstruction of the Xida Street in the town is arguable. Originally the Xida Street is in the famous city, but it has a lot of Tang style architecture. This is the “big” of what tourism development is chasing. Only the “big hat” of the Tang Dynasty that can meet the needs. These are all waiting to be summed up.

Q7 Please talk about the Tang-style architectures represented by master Zhang Jinqiu and its influence on the overall style of Xi’an city.

Zhang has played an irreplaceable role in the establishment of urban style and the city protection in Xi’an, which is of great value. Her ideas of architecture and the city really fit in with the development of the city as a whole, making a lot of important contributions to the city and fully realizing some of Liang Sicheng’s ideals. After she arrived in Xi’an, the thought of rampart protection and overall style was realized in Xi’an. Zhang is always a heir of Mr. Liang. This is an important contribution to Xi’an. Including the design of Bell-Drum Tower square we’ve mentioned, Zhang is the first practitioner of the city design, the Bell-Drum Tower square is a very important example of the city design. It has been built for 20 years so far, it is turning into a pleasant urban open space of Xi’an.it not only represent the image of Xi’an, but also the center and the meeting hall of Xi’an.

She has been considered city designing from the perspective of urban design for a long time. For example, the Shanxi Museum, next to the Dayan pagoda, what should the museum re fl ect? It needs a very appropriate language to express the long and splendid history and culture of Shan’xi, which based on the form of Chinese palaces. Last year we held a work exhibition for Zhang in her Museum.It’s been 25 years, but the museum is still very practical. The interior space adapts to the modern exhibition, and it can bring people a magnificent feeling. There is also the three Tang project thirty years ago. Its relationship with the Dayen pagoda and the coordination of the whole regional style is also a valuable creation. You can’t imagine building such a glass wall around the Dayen pagoda.She can embody the artistic conception of traditional space aesthetics and Chinese gardens. Zhang said she made these works at specific locations,which did not mean other works in Xi’an would be the same. There are similar projects that will do this. It is appropriate to adopt this approach in Xi’an’s symbolic nodes, specific conditions and specific building types. Zhang designed the Bell-Drum Tower square in a way, the Changan tower in another, which mainly uses steel structure and glass. Zhang is keeping up with time, she thinks this style is an important milestone for Xi’an to explore urban renewal and urban style protection.Meanwhile, there are many other attempts in Xi’an, such as Liu Kecheng’s works, and of course,some of our projects. After all, architecture must be modernized. It should be used not only to see,but also to adapt to the present way of life and present behavior. For example, the Xi’an municipal government that we designed, oce buildings need ecient, beautiful environment, like making the office in a park, this is an important standard for good oce buildings. Although there are some sloping roofs, but still there are spaces inside the slope roof that is available, without waste. A very important principle in designing our buildings is to exchange the least cost for maximum bene fi t.

Zhang was awarded by the ho Leung Ho Li awards,the Shanxi science and technology progress award,and the highest achievement that the asteroids named after her, which were all recognized by the society for her important contribution to the city and the industry. The Shanxi library, which I worked with Zhang, was very modern without the Tang-style big roof. 20 years have passed, it is still the most representative building on the second ring. Zhang is also adopting some dierent styles.Many people give Zhang a label, which is Tangstyle. In fact, she uses dierent treatments for different subjects and speci fi c locations, and most of the themes of Zhang’s creation are like this, so she has to use it. This is also a very important principle of our urban design, that is to be appropriate. Ten years ago, we have discussed the development of Xi’an with Zhang. She also said that to be diverse and harmonious, and to re fl ect her broad range of creative thinking.

Q8 Please pick a most distinctive place in Xi’an and explain the reasons.

The “distinctive” and “energy” may be connected,to be distinctive and there will be energetic. In Xi’an, I think there are some distinctive sites, but not linked yet. The Bell-Drum Tower is a representative of a classic city center. Then extend to the traditional cultural street of the Beiyuanmen area,representing, folkways. They are the most dynamic places in Xi’an on holidays. In fact, the Bell-Drum tower to the south gate is only 500 meters, the south gate is the most distinctive part Xi’an ramparts, and it’s an interface to welcome the foreign heads of state, it must be a dynamic place. On its east side there is a unique forest of Steles and the gate of Xi’an Academy. So I have been making some attempts, maybe there is a link among the south gate to the stele forest, to the academy gate,the bell tower, to the north courtyard gate and the mosque in the future. This link includes many of the most distinctive and dynamic places in Xi’an.I often think about why heritages in other cities are demolished? It is in the bones of Xi’an that there are the genes of the imperial city. Xi’an has become a government since Song Dynasty, but it still has that state of mind till now. Just as the theme of “Guan Xue” founded by Zhang Zai:“To

stand for nature, to take up the mission for the people, to learn and inherit the saints, and to give peace to the world”, this state of mind has never shown on vulgar people. This is the mind that the city gave to his genes, and the momentum of a capital.

So I think it’s good to make them linked. The urban design we are talking about, or our protection and characterization of the city, we must fi rst fi nd out the point of the city, and also to show them. Originally, the Bell Tower and the Drum Tower of the Bell-Drum Tower square did not connect to each other. By designing the square, the morning bells and evening drums became a city space, and a dynamic space of the city. If these urban heritages that distance less than one kilometer become a series, we can connect the Beiyuanmen area, the Academy gate, the forest of Steles, and so on. This must be a very dynamic area in Xi’an. Now we have punctiform the forest of Steles and the gate of the academy as a cultural tourist attraction, Beiyuanmen area as a center of folk food and culture,and the bell tower as a symbol of typical Ming Dynasty rampart. These features cannot replaced by other places, they have a strong historical culture and diversity, so they need our continuous exploration.

Q9 After talking about the old town of Xi’an as a historical city, please talk about your opinion of Xi’an’s new town construction.

We are also working on this. Our recent project is in the central business district of Xixian New District, which is to explore how cities develop in the future, how to meet the present needs, and not to lose their cultural meanings. I do not want to mention the style. It is too dicult to make the style of Xixian New District consistent with the old town of Xi’an. We often pursue the appearance of architecture and city rather than the essence, and the form is always the appearance. We are thinking about the future of the city and try to explore a new way. It’s not a separate design, but a cluster design after the design of the city. The urban design in this area was made by Liu Taige, and then dierent architects were hired to design the individual plot,but they were designed strictly under the strict control of the urban design.

Practically, it is very important for us to pursue group-win instead of individual outstanding. All of our architects have followed the shape of the square spontaneously. Maybe Xi’an has a gene

of square. It is a square city, with houses and everything in square. This is the temperament and character of a city. We stick on the square, but squares are like magic cubes that can change into many forms. At the same time, we attach great importance to the traffic of the whole modern city. In the underground, all the four blocks are hollowed out to form an underground ring corridor. In this way, the ground space is completely continuous to prevent the people and cars on the ground be mixed. We want to be a city that is truly serving people, there are many spaces that people can interact, feel pleasant and interesting. There is also a museum about Yu Yoren, but it is completely a house built according to the ancient wood structure. It has a strong contrastive conflict with the surrounding, and it is very storytelling. Almost all of the buildings are connected, with a pedestrian space on the second fl oor. Only under the condition of our cluster design can we really focus on the urban space. If we only mind our own businesses,like current development methods, we can only focus on ourselves and give the rest to the cities.So we took an opposite approach, to create urban public space and a space for people.

Do we need to be more modernized around Xi’an?I think there dose not have any problem. In fact,Some of our de fi nition of what good space is and what modernization is are similar, and this is also the characteristic of globalization. Globalization is likely to lose some regionalization. But the mother town of Xi’an is here, cannot be replaced by others elsewhere. Of course, there are many kinds of exploration of modernization, they form a colorful city together, this is normal. I once wrote an article called “all roads lead to the same goal”, such as the origin of cities in Rome or the urban changes of Changan of Han dynasty. Another example is the courtyard, Islam has studied and made great contributions to the courtyard. Different regional culture is based on the dierences of human adaptation, including scale, national culture and so on.I think we can eectively protect the ancient city and heritages, other region can do anything according to our understanding of the city and the future.They need to be modernized and internationalized as well, and not to pursue the regionalization too much. Unless it’s really close to our heritage, or I think the solutions are negotiable, as long as we respect and awe to the heritages.