超越游樂場：專訪荷蘭卡韋事務(wù)所創(chuàng)始人埃爾赫·比利茨先生

More Than Playgrounds: Interview with Elger Blitz, Carve Landscape Architecture

Carve Landscape Architecture(荷蘭卡韋事務(wù)所，以下簡稱“Carve”)成立于1997年，近二十年來，Carve一直專注于以兒童、青年為中心的公共空間設(shè)計，致力于提供具有無限游戲可能的空間及裝置設(shè)計。Carve 的作品主要集中在荷蘭及歐洲大陸，這些作品曾經(jīng)被世界各地的媒體報道。Carve 認(rèn)為，設(shè)計游戲絕不僅限于設(shè)計“游樂場”，而是一種激活城市的手段。本刊記者對Carve創(chuàng)始人埃爾赫·比利茨(Elger Blitz)先生進(jìn)行了專訪，詳細(xì)探討了他們的工作方法。采訪/整理：張博雅，荷蘭代爾夫特理工大學(xué)風(fēng)景園林碩士

Carve, founded in 1997, has been working on playing space for 20 years. According to their design philosophy, designing play is not only making playgrounds. Moreover, it’s a way to activate urban space. Our journalist interviewed the co-founder of Carve, Mr. Blitz, on the way they work for playgrounds. Interview and Summarize： Boya Zhang, MSc Landscape Architecture, TU Delft

1 礦山游樂場投標(biāo)設(shè)計The bid design

LAJ： Landscape Architecture JournalElger： Elger Blitz

2 礦山游樂場施工過程The construction process

3 Carve的第一個項目，位于荷蘭Hoofddrop的滑板公園The first project of Carve, the Hoofddrop skate park, Netherlands

LAJ：能否向我們介紹一下您最近的項目？

Elger：我們最近的項目之一是位于比利時的礦山游樂場（Be-Mine）。這里曾經(jīng)是一座煤礦，通往65m高的煤渣山山頂?shù)娜の镀碌朗琼椖康闹匾M成部分。

我們的方案利用了山體原始形態(tài)，將其轉(zhuǎn)化成為用于玩耍的坡面。設(shè)計的靈感來源于當(dāng)年礦工身上的吃苦精神和同志情誼。上山的方式很多，你可以和朋友們協(xié)作登上山頂，也可以自己來（圖1、2）。

這個項目和比利時當(dāng)?shù)氐膴W黑明事務(wù)所（Omgeving）以及施工方科林克思工程公司（Krinkels）共同完成。由于坡頂高度超過了60m，項目過程中有很多關(guān)于兒童安全的擔(dān)心和討論。幸運(yùn)的是，經(jīng)過第三方安全鑒定機(jī)構(gòu)的評估，我們的所有裝置，包括超長滑梯，都符合安全標(biāo)準(zhǔn)。

LAJ：Carve已經(jīng)成立近20年了。您當(dāng)時是如何開始從事游戲空間設(shè)計的呢？

Elger：非常偶然。我曾經(jīng)學(xué)習(xí)建筑，也從20世紀(jì)80年代初（上中學(xué)的時候）開始玩滑板。那時候沒有多少公共的滑板公園，因此我們開始設(shè)計和建造自己的滑板公園。90年代初，我協(xié)助一家游樂場制造商成功地設(shè)計和制造了滑板設(shè)施，于是他們邀請我為他們工作，設(shè)計游樂場裝置以及街道家具（圖3）。

在這份工作中，我越來越關(guān)注在城市視角下看待“玩”，而不是讓游戲裝置成為孤立的存在。為了實踐我的想法，我必須成立我自己的工作室。

LAJ：您當(dāng)時對什么不滿意呢？

Elger：90年代中期，游樂場或多或少都是從標(biāo)準(zhǔn)目錄上選出來的松散的產(chǎn)品組合。我對幾方面不太滿意，比如，你幾乎沒法在這些游樂場體驗到你小時候你家附近無名空地的魔力。另外，我也對裝置本身的設(shè)計感到失望。為什么不能像建筑師設(shè)計房子那樣設(shè)計獨(dú)一無二的、與所處環(huán)境密切聯(lián)系的游樂場呢？我對把建筑的品質(zhì)賦予游樂場的想法感到著迷。

LAJ：“建筑的品質(zhì)”具體指什么呢？

Elger：我是指好設(shè)計具有的附加值，或者通常意義上的好建筑。在建筑師看來，沒有什么比建造商產(chǎn)品目錄上的“標(biāo)準(zhǔn)公寓”更加糟糕的東西了。對游樂場來說，這難道不一樣嗎？為什么我們不能針對具體的場地特征和用戶需求，做能突出場地特色的游樂場設(shè)計，而不是僅僅在紅色鋼制秋千或者藍(lán)色鋼制秋千中做選擇？我發(fā)現(xiàn)，在今天，在阿姆斯特丹、紐約或是北京的游樂場看起來差不多并不是什么新鮮事。它們來自同一家北歐供應(yīng)商。如果游樂場不是為了其所處環(huán)境而建造，那你甚至沒法（通過它）分辨這到底是哪兒。通過孩子的視角想想吧，（如果告訴你的小伙伴）“讓我們在那個有塑料滑梯的游樂場見”，那有可能是任何地方。還是你寧愿說，“讓我們在‘藍(lán)色小山廣場’見”呢？這關(guān)乎“場所”的意義（圖4～6）。

4 Carve 作品：Bischopsplein，荷蘭烏特勒支Carve,s project , Bischopsplein, Utrecht, Netherlands

LAJ：Carve的每一個作品都是獨(dú)一無二的。這種獨(dú)特會意味著造價高昂嗎？

Elger：我沒資格來斷定我們的所有設(shè)計都是獨(dú)一無二的，不過我們盡力了。至于造價，可能會讓你吃驚的是，這些特別設(shè)計的游樂場通常不比那些“貨架上的”游樂場更貴。制造商、批發(fā)商、代理商等，他們都想從中獲利。你可以（把游樂場）與任何消費(fèi)品進(jìn)行比較。由于供應(yīng)鏈的存在，消費(fèi)品從生產(chǎn)到零售可能會漲價3到4倍。生產(chǎn)一雙零售價100美元的品牌運(yùn)動鞋只需要25美元！此外，得益于現(xiàn)代化的技術(shù)，比如3D打印和切割，生產(chǎn)特別定制的東西越來越便宜和容易了。我們經(jīng)常使用這些技術(shù)。如果把我們的工作方式與在產(chǎn)品目錄上挑選作比較，我能想到的我們的唯一缺點(diǎn)是設(shè)計過程需要時間。當(dāng)然，我們的最終成果一定能值回那些時間。

LAJ：Carve的很多作品都非常多彩。您對顏色有什么特別的考慮嗎？

Elger：對我來說，顏色不如設(shè)計中的其他要素重要，它們通常只是提醒成年人，“看，這是個游樂場”。我們曾經(jīng)做過全黑的游樂場（圖7、8），對孩子來說，它們和那些五顏六色的游樂場一樣有魅力。更有趣的是，孩子們把這里當(dāng)成了黑板，這是我們從來沒想到的。這也是關(guān)于孩子們“自己”的游樂場的很好例注。

當(dāng)然了，我們也設(shè)計過相當(dāng)鮮艷的游樂場。比如在拜爾莫公園（Bijlmer）的游樂場的設(shè)計中，當(dāng)我們參加了幾次社區(qū)公眾參與會議后，我們把顏色作為頭等大事來看待。這里的居民有著不同的族裔背景，在他們各自的文化中都有對明亮顏色的偏好，顏色可以成為他們的紐帶（圖9、10）。

另一個例子是我們在范伯寧廣場 （Van Beuningenplein）中使用的藍(lán)色。緊鄰廣場的房子是19世紀(jì)著名建筑師卡雷爾·巴澤 （K.P.C Bazel）為數(shù)不多的社會福利住房設(shè)計，同時，巴澤也以其藍(lán)色壓制玻璃器皿而聞名?？偟膩碚f，顏色的選擇很隨機(jī)，根據(jù)項目具體情況來，沒有一定之規(guī)（圖11、12）。

LAJ：的確如此。Aldo van Eyck 的游樂場就幾乎沒有顏色（圖13）。(Aldo van Eyck，阿爾多·范·艾克，荷蘭戰(zhàn)后重建時期建筑大師，在戰(zhàn)后百廢待興的阿姆斯特丹設(shè)計了一系列低成本的以游樂設(shè)施為中心的公共空間)

Elger：是的，這也說明了游戲和顏色沒有必然聯(lián)系。人們常常談及阿爾多的700多個游樂場設(shè)計，不過對我來說阿爾多的作品的意義在于其社會價值。

5 Carve 作品：Bischopsplein，荷蘭烏特勒支Carve,s project , Bischopsplein，Utrecht, Netherlands

6 Carve 作品：Bischopsplein，荷蘭烏特勒支Carve,s project , Bischopsplein，Utrecht, Netherlands

戰(zhàn)后，凡·伊斯特恩（Van Eesteren）起草的阿姆斯特丹規(guī)劃明顯缺乏對于人尺度的關(guān)注，更不要說兒童尺度了。阿爾多和雅各布·穆德 （ Jacoba Mulder）“軟化”了這份規(guī)劃。他們設(shè)計了 L 型的街區(qū)，創(chuàng)造了圍合的庭院空間。這些空間對公眾開放，并禁止車輛通行。阿爾多在這些空間里安置了簡單的游戲裝置，它們首先吸引了孩子們，家長隨后而至。這是精心的設(shè)計促進(jìn)社會聯(lián)系的策略。

7 Carve 作品：Potgieter 街，荷蘭阿姆斯特丹Carve's project , Potgieter，Amsterdam, Netherlands

8 Carve 作品：Potgieter 街，荷蘭阿姆斯特丹Carve's project , Potgieter，Amsterdam, Netherlands

于我，阿爾多的例子說明游樂場的意義在于其對社會的貢獻(xiàn)以及它為特定場所帶來的附加值。游樂場可以是更多可能性的起點(diǎn)。

LAJ：在設(shè)計中，您是如何平衡安全保障和探索樂趣的呢？

Elger：（笑）每個人都會問我游樂場的安全問題。首先，按照最新安全標(biāo)準(zhǔn)設(shè)計的，并擁有緩沖功能鋪裝的，且沒有交通穿行的游樂場已經(jīng)是相當(dāng)安全的地方了。在人行道上走比在游樂場玩危險多了。但安全的游樂場并不意味著你完全不會受傷。

游樂場是兒童學(xué)習(xí)如何識別風(fēng)險并與之相處的地方，他們在此學(xué)會為未來生活中的類似危險做好準(zhǔn)備。他們通過跑、跳、攀登、預(yù)估、合作等來學(xué)習(xí)，并鍛煉他們的認(rèn)知和運(yùn)動技能。我們的祖先在叢林里或大山中掌握了這些技能，今天的孩子們需要通過在游樂場中玩耍，應(yīng)對小挑戰(zhàn)來習(xí)得這一切。統(tǒng)計數(shù)據(jù)表明，如今被過度保護(hù)的兒童對風(fēng)險的評估和應(yīng)對能力不如以前的孩子們，那么他們長大成人以后也很難對風(fēng)險進(jìn)行有效判斷。

總而言之，游戲伴隨著程度可控的冒險，并不是一點(diǎn)傷害也沒有。好的游樂場設(shè)計，應(yīng)該鼓勵孩子們嘗試冒險，并且風(fēng)險不應(yīng)超過孩子們的身體機(jī)能可以控制的范圍。

我們所有的作品都符合歐洲或者其他地區(qū)的高級安全標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，但是你要知道游樂場并不能阻止人們故意闖禍（例如從10m高的地方跳下來）。僅僅符合標(biāo)準(zhǔn)并不等于安全，我很容易就能想到一些符合標(biāo)準(zhǔn)但是一點(diǎn)都不安全的設(shè)計。安全還需要人們有常識。另外，還有一點(diǎn)非常重要，有些安全并沒有被寫進(jìn)標(biāo)準(zhǔn)。舉一個相當(dāng)有荷蘭特色的例子：在荷蘭，絕大多數(shù)開放水域都是沒有柵欄的。這在某些國家和地區(qū)可能是無法想象的。這是因為幾乎所有的荷蘭小孩三歲就學(xué)習(xí)游泳了。

LAJ：您認(rèn)為體感游戲、虛擬現(xiàn)實之類的技術(shù)對戶外游戲有沖擊嗎？

Elger：虛擬現(xiàn)實和電子游戲讓成年人擔(dān)心他們的小孩不出門。同時，他們也因為工作太忙把孩子丟在屋里，不去花時間陪小孩。

孩子們很少感到無聊。他們保持開放，即使最簡單的東西也會引起他們的好奇和驚訝。我還記得我和我的孩子們在沒有網(wǎng)絡(luò)的森林小屋里相處。他們確實有抱怨無聊，但當(dāng)他們走到戶外就不一樣了，他們撿樹枝，撿石頭，搭小房子，跳過小水洼，等等。我相信虛擬現(xiàn)實和戶外游戲是完全不同的東西，它們并不沖突（圖14、15）。

LAJ：在過去的20年里，您覺得游樂場設(shè)計這個領(lǐng)域有沒有什么變化呢？

Elger：我想你這樣問是因為我們已經(jīng)有20年的歷史了。和最初相比，我們現(xiàn)在受到了更認(rèn)真的對待。我們剛開始的時候幾乎沒法靠設(shè)計游樂場存活。2006年，我們的作品Wall-holla取得了巨大的成功。這是我們在游樂場設(shè)計上取得的里程碑性突破（圖16、17）。

也正是在那個時候，人們對于“玩”的看法發(fā)生了改變，玩被認(rèn)為是生活中不可或缺的價值。很多東西一下子就成了“游樂場”，或者“像游樂場一樣的”。我們很高興我們早在十年前（1997年）就介入了這個行業(yè)，積累了很多經(jīng)驗。

不過，“玩”本身并沒有什么變化。這對不同文化背景的孩子來說都差不多，這也是為什么“玩”如此有趣和迷人。

（除特別注明來源外，本文所有圖片版權(quán)歸荷蘭卡韋事務(wù)所所有）

LAJ： Could you please show me a recent project from Carve?

Elger： One of our more recent projects is Be-Mine, a former coalmine in Belgium. Part of the project was the playful access of the slag hill that is almost 65 meters high.

Our proposal is based on using the true section and surface of this hillock as the actual playing surface.The design was influenced both by the hardship and the comradeship that the former mineworkers encountered. You can climb up in numerous ways either solely or with the help of your friends (Fig. 1,2).

This project was a collaboration with Omgeving a local landscape firm and Krinkels a Belgian contractor. Due to the height of over 60 meters there where of course many concerns and discussion about children's safety. Luckily all our projects are and have to be certified by independent safety institutes that proved that the total installation including the super long slide where within all safety standards.

LAJ： How did you started Carve 20 years ago?

Elger： Coincidentally I should say, I studied architecture, and had been involved in skateboarding since the beginning of the eighties when I was still in secondary school.

Due to the lack of any skate parks in the public realm at that time we started designing and building our own skate parks. Beginning of the nineties I successfully assisted a playground company developing skate facilities, that lead into a job offer to design their play equipment and street furniture as well (Fig. 3).

During my employment I started being more interested in what "play" could mean from a perspective of urbanity then being interested in play equipment as a standalone feature. To bring my ideas into practice I had to start my own design agency.

LAJ： At what were you unsatisfied at that time?

Elger： Mid nineties of the last century playgrounds where more or less a loosely scattered amount of equipment selected from a brochure. I was not satisfied with several aspects, for instance you would never find the same quality and magic as you did find on that mogul field that used to be behind your house when you were young, but I was also disappointed with the quality of the design of the equipment itself. Why not have specially designed site specific playgrounds and equipment in the same way that you would hire an architect that designs a building? I was fascinated by the idea to bring that architectural quality to the playgrounds that we were working on.

9 Carve 作品：Bijlmer 公園，荷蘭阿姆斯特丹Carve,s project , Bijlmer，Amsterdam, Netherlands

10 Carve 作品：Bijlmer 公園，荷蘭阿姆斯特丹Carve,s project , Bijlmer，Amsterdam, Netherlands

LAJ： What do you mean by 'architectural quality'?

Elger： With architectural quality I mean the enhanced quality that comes with good design, or good architecture in general. Nothing worse then a standard "condo" from the building contractors catalogue, seen from the perspective of the architect, why couldn't this be the same for playgrounds they could be designed both around specific needs, reflecting or fitting site specifics and could be bespoke, instead of just being selected from a brochure giving you the choice between a red steel or blue steel swing. I find it rather peculiar that a playground these days either in Amsterdam, Beijing or New York would look practically the same, coming from a certain "Scandinavian"supplier. If it wasn't for the surroundings you wouldn't even know where the playground was situated. And consider it from a child's perspective as well: "let's meet at the playground with the plastic slide" that could be anywhere or would you rather say let's meet at the "blue hill square"? Its all about sense of place(Fig.4～6).

LAJ： All your works are unique. Does it mean that they are expensive?

11 Carve作品：Van beuningenplein，荷蘭阿姆斯特丹Carve's project , Van beuningenplein，Amsterdam, Netherlands

Elger： It is not for me to judge if all our designs are unique, at least we try to. Regarding budgets you would be surprised to learn that a specially designed playground is usually not more expensive then a "from the shelf" equipped playground. Production, wholesale, agents etc. they all want their share. You could compare this to any consumer product that due to the supply chain has marked up 3 to 4 times; a pair of Brand sneakers, would be sold for 100 dollars but the fabrication is only 25! With todays modern fabrication techniques, like 3d printing and cutting, is has also become more easy and economically more affordable to make one time only large scale "strange" objects. We use these techniques quite often. The only thing I can think of as a disadvantage in the way we work is the fact that the design process takes time, compared to ordering brochure equipment. But for sure the outcome ofour projects would easily pay up for that.

LAJ： Most of your works are colorful. What ideas are behind colors?

Elger：Colors are not by far that important to me as other aspects of our designs, very often colorful playgrounds are only waving to adults "look this is a playground". We have even made complete black playgrounds(Fig. 7,8). They are as attractive to children as the colorful, most interestingly the children started using the black safety surfacing as a chalkboard, something that we could never had thought of, and a fine illustration of the interpretation that children have their own dedicated play area's.

Of course we have also made extreme colored playgrounds, for instance in "Bijlmerpark" color was the leading motif here after we had attended several participative meetings. Bright colors where the binding factor in this neighborhood where a major part of the population is from different ethnic backgrounds(Fig. 9,10).

Another example is the blue we used for the Van Beuningenplein, the adjacent buildings are one of the very few social housing that were designed by K.P.C the Bazel, a famous 19th century architect that was also known for its pressed glass blue tableware. That's exactly how arbitrary color choices are(Fig. 11,12).

LAJ： It's ture. Aldo van Eyck's playgrounds are colorless (Fig. 13).

Elger： That is absolutely true, and that also demonstrates why the relevance of play is not in the color.

12 Carve作品：Van beuningenplein，荷蘭阿姆斯特丹Carve's project , Van beuningenplein，Amsterdam, Netherlands

13 Aldo van Eyck在阿姆斯特丹的游樂場項目之一One of Aldo van Eyck's playgrounds in Amsterdam, Netherlands

In general people speak about Aldo's 700 and over playgrounds, but the importance of Aldo's playgrounds, for me, is what he has contributedwith them to society.

The modernist layout of Amsterdam as designed by Van Eesteren before the Second World War was imaginably not going to be a place that was relating to the human scale let alone "children's" scale.

Aldo van Eyck (and Jacoba Mulder) "softened" Van Eesteren's urban planning by introducing L-shaped building blocks thus creating some sort of public inner courts open for everyone and free of cars. He situated simple play equipment in these places that attracted children at first, parents followed. A well thought strategy for stimulating social connections.

Aldo represents for me the idea that the importance is all about the contribution and added value you can bring to a certain place and where the playground can be the start of something more.

LAJ： How do you balance the security and the joy of exploration in your design?

Elger： (Laughs) Everybody is always asking about safety on playgrounds. Firstly todays playgrounds are already extremely safe places, build to the latest standards, no traffic and lushly covered with a impact attenuating floor. Walking on the adjacent sidewalk is much more dangerous then the playground. But having said so a safe playground doesn't mean that you can't get injured at all.

14 Carve 作品：游戲島，阿姆斯特丹森林公園Carve's project , play island，Amsterdam, Netherlands

15 Carve 作品：游戲島，阿姆斯特丹森林公園Carve's project , play island，Amsterdam, Netherlands

Playgrounds are safe environments where children learn to cope with risks, learn how to avoid and/or handle potential risks hence being educated to "prepare" themselves for similar dangers they could encounter in future life. This is done by jumping, scaling, running, estimating, cooperating and so on, they are training their motor and cognitive skills. As our ancestors did in forests ormountainsides. In todays life children need to learn this through playing on a playground. They have to practice and learn this by being challenged to take calculable risks. Statistics have showed that today's children are not capable as well as children from other generations to calculate and deal with these risks anymore by being over protected, hence not being able to judge risks as well by the time they are adults.

To conclude playing comes with a acceptable hazard and is not injury free. A good playground is build in a way that both stimulates taking risks but limits these risks to an acceptable level for children in relation to their motor and cognitive skills.

All of our projects always meet the European or any other standard that is prevailing locally around the world. One shouldn't forget though that playgrounds cannot eliminate risks deliberately taken (like jumping from a 10 meter high cliff). Safety is not in the standard itself, I can easily think of designs that would perfectly match the safety standard but aren't safe at all, safety is also about common sense. Last but not least there is also safety that is not written in standards. Let me give you a very "Dutch" example, most open water in the Netherlands is not fenced off, something unthinkable in many countries; but all Dutch children learn to swim starting as young as three years old.

LAJ： Do you thin technologies, such as virutal reality, have impact on outdoor playing?

16 Wall-holla(新加坡)為Carve在2006年設(shè)計的垂直游戲裝置，獲當(dāng)年荷蘭設(shè)計獎。該作品受到了世界各地的廣泛歡迎。Carve vertical game device designed by Wall -holla(Singapore)in 2006, which won the Dutch design awards that year. The work was popular all over the world.

Elger： Virtual reality and digital gaming are things that worry parents, being afraid that their offspring stays inside. But it's the same parents that keep the children inside being too busy with working etc. and not having the time to accompanytheir children.

Children are seldom bored and are always open to be astounded and amazed by the simplest of things. I remember staying with my kids in a forest lodge, no wifi available. And yes they complained pretended to be bored, but rapidly interchange this, ones collecting sprigs stones, building huts, jumping puddles etc outdoors. I have a strong believe that both VR, digital gaming and outdoor or physically intense playing are complete different things, both having existence next to each other(Fig.14,15).

LAJ： Is there any change in this field during the past 20 years?

Elger： I think you are comparing to the fact that Carve exists 20 years. Compared to then we are taken much more seriously. When we had just started we could hardly survive by only designing play-environments. Around 2006 one of our play installations, "The wallholla" became a big success overnight. It was both a breakthrough for us as for the design of play equipment(Fig.16,17).

Around the same that there was also a change in thinking about "play". It started to be seen as a value in life and a parameter in everything, suddenly everything was called a playground or reflected upon as ''playgroundlike''. We were happy to have started our agency ten years before, and where appreciated to have a certain kind of expertise in that particular field.

Playing in general.......hasn't changed, nor is it substantially different between children of different cultures, and that is exactly what it makes it so interesting and intriguing.

17 Wall-holla(德國)為Carve在2006年設(shè)計的垂直游戲裝置，獲當(dāng)年荷蘭設(shè)計獎。該作品受到了世界各地的廣泛歡迎。Carve vertical game device designed by Wall -holla(Germany)in 2006, which won the Dutch designawards that year. The work was popular all over the world.

18 Carve的設(shè)計師在他們設(shè)計的游樂場The designers of Carve were playing in the playground designed by themselves